gender & sexuality issues in fandom, some thoughts

[meitachi]

(Icon used semi-ironically!)

So I'm following unfunnybusiness@JF to keep updated on a lot of outrageous things (good source for interesting news actually though I need to find another place with more gender/LGBTQ-specific issues and China-issues) and it's been very educational and also very...rage-inducing. ffrantsrants is entertaining especially for fandom meta; possibly I should start following metafandom? sf_drama?

Anyway, the point is that I've run across a lot of gender/LGBTQ current issues lately that, paired with my readings for my Sexuality and the Law class, are fascinating and make me wish I had the time to meta about how fandom (as I've encountered) deals with these issues. Genderswap, for instance, is poorly-named, when it's actually changing the physical sex of the character in question. Is it propogating stereotypes? Is it enforcing the mainstream view of binary genders and binary sexes? Of course, "it's just a kink" and that may (or may not) excuse it to some degree, as long as the people who enjoy it are still aware of the actual issues in the world involving genderqueer individuals. (After all, rape fantasies are only just fantasies and I wish people would learn to distinguish liking a kink from supporting something IRL. Also: YKINMK.) I don't know that I have much (or any) authority to be speaking on these issues but I do know I want to learn more.


Though always to keep in mind is this comment by alana_r (in this mess of a post about gender identity):

The world is bigger and more complicated than your studies have taught you, because the majority of academic writing about gender identity and sexuality has been done by cisgendered people who don't know a lot about what it's like. You've accidentally stepped in some poo because you think of sexual identity issues as a fascinating topic for study and you just ran into people for whom it's THEIR LIFE, so they took some things you said as offensive and you don't get why because academically, everything you said was accurate... but academia itself has a cisgender bias that transpeople can find hurtful. Read some writings *of* transpeople (I hear "Whipping Girl" by Julia Serrano is a great resource) and remember that academic study of humans absolutely requires objectifying them in order to study them objectively... but people who have been objectified all their lives can hear when you're doing it, and it upsets them. You have to learn to turn the academics off when you're talking to humans for whom your issue of study is not academic at all, but is their real life.

Sadly I don't have a lot of time today or this week to really get into an in-depth discussion about these issues or thoughts - I don't even know if the flist is interested. Kpop fandom as a whole, in my experience, has not been as keen to discuss these issues as other fandoms. But that's just my experience and I suppose factors like the average age of fandom, the fact that there seem to be a lot more non-native English speakers active in fandom (i.e., they are therefore less likely to hold debates about serious issues where they are unfamiliar with the nuances of terminology, like I would never try to bring up a discussion of these issues in Chinese), and other things contribute to the non-debate. I don't know. Just speculating.

Also relevant is the fact that the "canon" is an entirely different culture from what native English speakers know. Not that that should preclude discussion, but it is something that affects how the whole binary gender, gender roles, LGBTQ culture, etc. are viewed (within the culture).

I don't even know what I'm trying to say except these issues/topics fascinate me and have been on my mind lately and here! This is me sharing. Pretentious post is pretentious, probably, but hay I gots learnings, let me show 'em off! No, really, just some random thoughts about things I'd like to learn more about.

/eyes the post critically. After reading too much wank (the stuff you learn!), I'm super-wary about any turns of phrases or unintentional messages I may be sending that offend. Pretentious I can probably deal with; offensive, I'd rather not be.

TL;DR - Sometimes I do more than flail superficially at hot people! And sometimes I think that's worth sharing.

Comments

[papered.livejournal.com]

this is just to say, ilu, and good luck with your footnotes! (ｏ￣∀￣)ノ”

[meiface.livejournal.com]

tyty! I am slaving away some more tonight.

[peachpastiche.livejournal.com]

If you want outrage worthy meta, sf_drama is the place for you!

[meiface.livejournal.com]

I think I will add it - we should have more discussions of these things too. I definitely respect your opinions on them and I know you at least have opinions. So many fandom people are just so blasé and oblivious...

[peachpastiche.livejournal.com]

Yeah, definitely! I was going to say that too and I forgot. I would love to discuss with you.

[vanillacat.livejournal.com]

I would totally jump on this, except a. "genderswap" is one of my least-favorite kinks (I read slash for the boys, sry2say) so I wouldn't be able to contribute much, and b. I am le tired. :( Globalization is a bitch of a topic to write an essay about. CHILD LABOR, SIGHS.

BUT I DO LIKE TALKING "CANON". If you'd like to discuss, go ahead! I will comment back.... Eventually. ; ~ ; When my brain hurts less.

[meiface.livejournal.com]

Oh well I don't mean to make anyone debate or discuss with me (I hardly have the time ;__;) - I was just putting some thoughts out there because these things have been on my mind the past few days.

We don't have to talk about genderswap! There are lots of other things, like (as I mentioned below to Sheena) the way fandom will call Zhou Mi a big fat girl and mean it affectionately but still be reinforcing gender stereotypes.

And I could meta on "canon" forever, omg so interesting, especially how in RPF/S canon is constantly changing and then there's a whole tangent of do we really "know" someone and how we define "know" because I probably know more about Donghae or some online friends I've never met than I know about some people I talk to irl, so is physical face-to-face interaction necessary? And so on and so forth unto eternity.

But I have to go back to work right now so... ;_;

[thundersquall.livejournal.com]

ROFL, this is odd because just yesterday todefinebeauty and I were discussing how gender is very much a social construct and how it may be unfair to force people with gender identity issues into one or another.

[meiface.livejournal.com]

Oh definitely a social construct. I spent three hours in my Sexuality class discussing this and its legal repercussions; fascinating stuff. I'm also interested in how it's viewed and dealt with outside of the US. Wahh, so much meta material. How many fics reinforce gender norms and stereotypes? Like the repeated calling of Zhou Mi a girl just because he displays tendencies/likes that are stereotypically pinned down as "feminine".

Obviously, most are in fun and are affectionate, but that doesn't mean we're not reinforcing gender stereotypes. :(

[mardigrasmaven.livejournal.com]

I'm actually very interested in this. I'd love to hear what you and others think of this topic.

That excerpt from alana_r hit the nail on the head too. It is THEIR life, not just some topic, so expect a fall out if you treat their life as just some topic. If one can't see why it would be offensive, one need not ask at all.

Also, like how you said this: Of course, "it's just a kink" and that may (or may not) excuse it to some degree, as long as the people who enjoy it are still aware of the actual issues in the world involving genderqueer individuals. (After all, rape fantasies are only just fantasies and I wish people would learn to distinguish liking a kink from supporting something IRL.

In a similar yet different hole: how about those that write slash/fem-slash or flail over the KPop boys and girls doing fanservice and claim to love this pairing and that pairing but would shun their idols should they really be homosexual... is that really ok? "It's ok to "ACT" gay, I love that, but they can't really "BE" gay, because I'll hate them if they are." How does that work. In that case would homosexuality be considered a kink fantasy?

[meiface.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I've encountered a lot of attitudes like what you've mentioned in fandom - fangirls who like slash or yaoi but are uncomfortable with the idea of supporting homosexuality irl. Most of the time they aren't blatant about it but in the end I think you're right - it really does kind of become a kink fantasy for them. Tbh, there is an element of fantasy in liking slash because, realistically speaking, what are the chances that all these guys or all these girls will be into the same sex? Slim to none. And when we write fics where, for example, all of SJ is gay and paired up - even more unrealistic. But we're able to suspend reality because we want to enjoy a good story, have fun, etc. to the point where making boys fall for other boys or girls fall for other girls is just another kink, among many.

So I guess I apply the same standard as with other kinks? Your kink is not my kink and that's okay - you (general) don't have to like slash, I don't have to like rape fantasies, and we can all get along, sure. It definitely makes me uncomfortable when people support slash in fiction as a kink but aren't okay with it irl, but I can kind of see the reasoning...if they happen to be very conservative or religious, I guess, and believe that homosexuality is actually a sin. I disagree with them, obviously, but sometimes we can't change that. The difference between making slash a fantasy and making rape a fantasy, imo, is that rape irl is actually a horrific thing. I don't believe homosexuality is. I guess they do. :|

And that's a whole other non-fandom, non-fiction category of issues to address.

[mardigrasmaven.livejournal.com]

And that really is something totally different. The ability to be able to suspend reality and then pick it back up after the last word of a fic. I know it's most likely not the truth that every last member in Super Junior is gay (if it was true, I'd be beyond shocked because not even Nostradamus could've predicted that one!) but fic is short for what it truly is: FICTION. I read it as fiction. The Heechul in this fic is different from the Heechul in that fic is different from Heechul irl. Some personality quirks in fic may be inspired by rl Chullie, but in the end, it's not him. Same goes for any fic character based off of a real person. If any one of them were truly gay/lesbian/etc., I'd still love and support them no matter what, because there's nothing wrong with homosexuality.

And rape... rape is more of a sin than homosexuality could ever be, and that's easy considering that homosexuality isn't a sin (imo). If rape is a kink fantasy, fine, whatever, so long as one realizes that outside of fantasy and fiction, it should NEVER be condoned. It is NOT ok in real life and will NEVER be ok. Same thing with shota and loli. In anime and manga, it's a common thing for adults to get with teenagers, but it's fiction. The authors don't condone pedophilia, but it's still a fantasy kink. You think CLAMP condones that? No. Most of the readers don't either. But they can suspend reality and that is the difference.

But yea, we can agree to disagree and not share the same kink fantasies, so long as in the end, we agree that it's just a fantasy. Once real life gets thrown in, there's some more dicey elements to deal with.

I think I may've bounced around a bit... ^^;
Ok so me, supports homosexuality as a kink (because boys I think are hot kissing other boys I think are hot makes it even hotter XD) and homosexuality irl (because there's nothing wrong or sinful about it, love is love).

[forochel.livejournal.com]

akdjgasdg man, I could (and have) spent an entire day reading posts about these things.

only tangentially related, but I think you'd like reading through the Asian Women Carnival (http://asianwomencarnival.wordpress.com/).

[meiface.livejournal.com]

I have definitely spent hours upon hours reading about stuff like this! :D

And thank you for linking that - I skimmed over a bit and it looks super interesting and right up my alley of interest. Yay!

[meiface.livejournal.com]

DID YOU SEE THIS? (http://goodgirlsmarrydoctors.webs.com/) SO INTERESTING. I'm considering writing and submitting something! Just considering though, since I haven't given it much actual, directed thought yet...

[forochel.livejournal.com]

Well, now I have! Well, if you do decide to don't give yourself too much stress over it. AS I KNOW YOU WILL. I'm just a bit sad that I can't write for it. ):

[icewarrior15.livejournal.com]

Lol. Sorry, I don't really comment on stuff. But after reading your post, I can't help it.

I guess when you actually consider the whole issue in general, you will realise that everything depends on the open-mindness and bravery of people. There are so many people in fandoms who support homosexuals but they won't dare to voice out their opinions in the real world. I am not saying that includes everybody. I honestly appreciate people who stand up for what they believe in. And I am not blaming certain people for being hypocriticial as I have to admit it is a harsh world out there.

Mardigrasmaven said something bout people wanting to see their idols together and hating it in real life. I guess to certain people, it is harder to imagine their idols with girls as (they don't get a chance.. I think you know what I mean) but idols with other male idols is unlikely to happen in real life. So it is harder to swallow for certain fangirls i guess.

But there is some people who really annoy me. They are homophobes. I mean some of them are really nice. But whenever the topic of homosexuals rise up, they just shoot down homosexuals and call their behaviour disgusting. It is freaking annoying since it is not like it is their lifestyle or something. Just because it is different, they discriminate against it. It is even worse, when some homphobes find out that their friends might not be completely straight, they either totally don't talk to them or they go up to them and greatly disapprove of it and scold them. They are your friends. No matter what your beliefs are, you should support them. They do the same for you. They put their opinions aside and support you all the way if something is of real importance to you. Their sexuality is part of their identity. If you think that it is easy to change that. Then what about your sexuality? Can you change it to whatever you like? If you can't, then you shouldn't expect the same of your unstraight friends. If you strongly believe that homosexuality is wrong, then don't comment on it. Just say that you disapprove and don't say anything more.

Just something that has always been in mind since i entered the world of fanfiction.Fanfiction introduced me to slash. And I am really glad for that cos it showed me the other side to everything. Issues that are sometimes avoided in real life. Sorry, if I ranted and this doesn't make any sense:/

[meiface.livejournal.com]

Hey, these issues are seriously fascinating! I definitely welcome discussion about them.

I agree with what you've said though. I mentioned above to mardigrasmaven that to some people, homosexuality is just a "fantasy" they like to read in fiction - which is all sorts of weird for me, because I am very much not okay with that idea because I don't see homosexuality as something inherently wrong or sick or sinful in reality, and I think a huge part of why some people see slash only as a kink of sorts is because of that world view. And that world view means they don't support their friends who come out as gay and, yeah, it's hurtful. Especially, as you mentioned, that you'd like to think the friendship would trump the icky feelings.

A lot of it stems from religious beliefs, I guess, or misunderstandings - like the idea that your sexuality is something you choose or can turn on or off, which is ridiculous. I don't expect everyone to be 100% behind their friends' choices (people make bad decisions; my friends have made bad decisions I didn't support; hell, I've made bad decisions they don't support), but coming out is when people most need emotional support and it's so sad to see when friendships deteriorate from that alone - it's not like the person you knew and loved before that has suddenly changed or anything. Not really. Not where it matters.

Yeah, obviously I have strong feelings about this too and tend to ramble a lot...

[mardigrasmaven.livejournal.com]

I guess to certain people, it is harder to imagine their idols with girls as (they don't get a chance.. I think you know what I mean) but idols with other male idols is unlikely to happen in real life.

That was another thing too. For some people (mainly girls), it's like "I don't really LIKE him getting with HIM... but it beats him getting with HER."

The whole "what's she got that I ain't got" type thing disappears when you put another man into the factor... at least the physical aspect. On that level, it puts a girl at ease knowing that the celeb male she likes won't be in a relationship with another woman, meaning that the other woman can't have him either and it obviously had nothing to do with herself that she couldn't get him. But should that thinking become real, and he actually does turn out to be gay, she's filled with a resentment that she never stood a chance and will never get him.

Inferiority if he's straight because she sees the "other" woman as the "winner" even though she considers herself the "better" woman. He could have had her, who had so much to offer, but he chose "her" instead.

Inferiority if he's gay because he chose "him" over her and how dare he pick this "man" who can't love like a woman or bear children (which tends to be a major issue) and him loving guys wasn't supposed to be "real" especially if it was only supposed to keep "her" away and leave him open for her.

Did that make sense? I was just calling it like I see it.

[silentdictator.livejournal.com]

Sorry to just stalker into your comment train but I thought that your comment really reflected a lot of reasons for why so many fangirls desire their favorite Kpop idols to be gay in fanfictions. It leaves them with a sense of ease about gender and identity.

But there are also those who simply replace reality with that one pairing of two men together. Because maybe they think they see something that's they really think exists. Theoretically, it could be that the fangirl really does see those two idols as an item or in an irl relationship. But psychology and fanfiction kinks are hard to discern and I don't even know if my own two cents made any sense at all...

[meritjubet.livejournal.com]

I love genderswap (as badly named as it is), this has led to me reading several meta posts on the nature of genderswap (followed by waves of guilt). I guess the major division is always-a-girl/boy vs sudden-swap. I prefer always, one of my major loves is when people write about the differences of the other gender, how that might change their life (re: bandom, women in music reaching epic heights in rock and such doesn't happen all that much). Gender is something that utterly intrigues me, despite being quite cis-gendered myself. Also Mishy's rec, the Asian Women Carnival, is a *great* read.

I hope I haven't offended anyone too.

[meiface.livejournal.com]

I am guilty of still calling it genderswap too - I guess it's kind of set term for fandom already? I can't imagine suddenly calling it "sexswap" or something. Idk. I wasn't a huge fan of it before but, strangely, it's grown on me a lot since I've been in kpop fandom. Though for me I like the sudden swap trope more than the always-a-girl/boy trope - mostly it depends on how awesome the author is and how they can keep characters IC but still show relevant changes. :D It is definitely something fun to explore with writing, I think - a challenge in characterization.

[forochel.livejournal.com]

re: genderswap



I LOVE GIVING GUYS MENSTRUAL CRAMPS.

[meritjubet.livejournal.com]

MISHY IS NOW EXCLUDED FROM THE CONVERSATION.

D:

[meiface.livejournal.com]

SUNGMIN KNOWS.