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[meta] fandom and writing and so on
Apologies for last night's tipsy capslocking. I'm impressed I managed to make sparkles.
Finished up my last law class of 2L year, but that means I've endless endless amounts of work awaiting me with the next two-week exam period. I live a pretty boring life, really.
One among many ways I procrastinate is by reading meta about fandom, actually, and there are some some interesting topic discussions I thought I'd link:
To start, this is why we do it and this is why we should be proud.
Case for the Defence (of Fanfiction)
Some issues that can crop up and things to keep in mind.
On the problems presented by WNGWJLEO (We're Not Gay We Just Love Each Other)
On what slash writers are "expected" to write (with an interesting thread about What Is AU)
On the infamous YKINMKATO (Your Kink is Not My Kink and That's OK!)
On how, sometimes, maybe it's just you
But in conclusion, let's just have fun.
What's Wrong with Having Fun (in Fandom)?
I've written fics where I've tried to to use literary devices such as foreshadowing and implement certain thematic elements in a subtle way. I've tried to go for suggestive rather than in-your-face presentation. Sometimes, this works and comes through. Sometimes, it doesn't.
There are times when I think I've integrated subtle things - certain words or actions by the characters, certain themes throughout the piece - that I start to doubt later on when I start receiving comments. Because oftentimes it becomes clear that (1) the readers had no idea what I was trying to do, (2) the readers didn't notice what I was trying to do, or (3) the readers figured it out but weren't so impressed that they felt a need to mention it in a comment. The last doesn't bother me: it's the first two that concern me.
There's maybe a knee-jerk defensive reaction to readers questioning what you what trying to get across by thinking: why are you so blind? It's perfectly obvious what I'm trying to say or imply here!
This stems from my innate need to defend against any criticism and the mistaken belief that just because I know what I'm doing (but of course I do, it all makes sense because it's all in my head), that others are just being silly or unobservant or blind.
Given hopefully half a moment of reflection and a calming breath, this usually melts back into realization that, hey, I guess I wasn't as clear as I had hoped to be in conveying the message or theme or foreshadowing. That's a mistake on my part; sloppy writing and failure to put what was in my brain into coherent text for a third party's comprehension.
And this usually is the case. But there is a line, isn't there? What if your average reader is not that quick on the uptake? Does that mean a writer should write at a level aimed at the target audience? What if their target audience is a slightly more intellectual audience more familiar with the standards and tropes of literature? What if half the audience understands what the author is trying to say or do and the other half doesn't? Does that mean the author is just writing badly or does that mean maybe half the audience is just - not per se dumb but - inexperienced with certain tools of the trade in storytelling or figurative language?
Say the author writes in a reference to ancient Egyptian culture that is fairly widely known among people who have had a certain kind of exposure due to their education or their culture; other readers who lack the same cultural background wouldn't understand the reference. Is that poor writing?
What if the author incorporates certain subtleties in how one character treats another one that reflects an unhealthy obsession that isn't immediately and frankly obvious? Some of the readers see it and comment on how creepy it is. Others miss it entirely and think the relationship is sweet, not disturbing. Is that poor writing? Is it all dependent on how many people figure out and understand what the author is doing?
I've written build-ups to certain emotions or scenes that I thought I had set up well. I get a lot of comments saying it was so sudden! I figure I've written poorly and the build-up had not been clearly expressed in my writing. But then I get other comments reflecting that commenter's grasp of the subtleties I thought I had written. Is that one commenter's opinion worth more than three opinions that I hadn't been clear enough? Is that one commenter just a more mature and experienced reader who more easily grasps the nuances of writing? Even if she were, did I still write poorly because the majority didn't understand? Do I compromise my writing integrity (is there such a thing) in order to write in a way more people understand, or would making things clearer be nothing more than clarifying and strengthening my writing?
As a reader, if I end up missing something - I may very well end up thinking the author is a poor writer because he or she didn't convey whatever they meant to as well as they should have. On the other hand, I reread books that I love a lot and realize, hey, look at all this foreshadowing and use of themes I didn't notice the first time around! That wasn't the author being unclear: that was me not picking up on things as I read.
So I mostly have a lot of questions and no definitive answers. There is a point, I think, where an author is objectively bad or a reader is just objectively Missing the Point. But there is, to me, a lot of gray area in the middle where two competent, intelligent people are just missing each other like (cliché alert) ships passing in the night.
My general (tentative and always subject to change, because meta is such an interesting topic to me) opinion is that we can all always improve. So even if an author thinks they're good but get told that they're getting misunderstood a lot - there is still room to tighten their writing and improve. Readers, likewise, can always increase their reading comprehension through more reading of well and precisely written stories.
In conclusion: I think too much about writing, especially when I've nearly given it up. Anyway, this is mostly just talking, so don't mind me. I've been ruminating on this topic for a while now. And now - back to procrastinating by reading!
Finished up my last law class of 2L year, but that means I've endless endless amounts of work awaiting me with the next two-week exam period. I live a pretty boring life, really.
One among many ways I procrastinate is by reading meta about fandom, actually, and there are some some interesting topic discussions I thought I'd link:
To start, this is why we do it and this is why we should be proud.
Case for the Defence (of Fanfiction)
Some issues that can crop up and things to keep in mind.
On the problems presented by WNGWJLEO (We're Not Gay We Just Love Each Other)
On what slash writers are "expected" to write (with an interesting thread about What Is AU)
On the infamous YKINMKATO (Your Kink is Not My Kink and That's OK!)
On how, sometimes, maybe it's just you
But in conclusion, let's just have fun.
What's Wrong with Having Fun (in Fandom)?
I've written fics where I've tried to to use literary devices such as foreshadowing and implement certain thematic elements in a subtle way. I've tried to go for suggestive rather than in-your-face presentation. Sometimes, this works and comes through. Sometimes, it doesn't.
There are times when I think I've integrated subtle things - certain words or actions by the characters, certain themes throughout the piece - that I start to doubt later on when I start receiving comments. Because oftentimes it becomes clear that (1) the readers had no idea what I was trying to do, (2) the readers didn't notice what I was trying to do, or (3) the readers figured it out but weren't so impressed that they felt a need to mention it in a comment. The last doesn't bother me: it's the first two that concern me.
There's maybe a knee-jerk defensive reaction to readers questioning what you what trying to get across by thinking: why are you so blind? It's perfectly obvious what I'm trying to say or imply here!
This stems from my innate need to defend against any criticism and the mistaken belief that just because I know what I'm doing (but of course I do, it all makes sense because it's all in my head), that others are just being silly or unobservant or blind.
Given hopefully half a moment of reflection and a calming breath, this usually melts back into realization that, hey, I guess I wasn't as clear as I had hoped to be in conveying the message or theme or foreshadowing. That's a mistake on my part; sloppy writing and failure to put what was in my brain into coherent text for a third party's comprehension.
And this usually is the case. But there is a line, isn't there? What if your average reader is not that quick on the uptake? Does that mean a writer should write at a level aimed at the target audience? What if their target audience is a slightly more intellectual audience more familiar with the standards and tropes of literature? What if half the audience understands what the author is trying to say or do and the other half doesn't? Does that mean the author is just writing badly or does that mean maybe half the audience is just - not per se dumb but - inexperienced with certain tools of the trade in storytelling or figurative language?
Say the author writes in a reference to ancient Egyptian culture that is fairly widely known among people who have had a certain kind of exposure due to their education or their culture; other readers who lack the same cultural background wouldn't understand the reference. Is that poor writing?
What if the author incorporates certain subtleties in how one character treats another one that reflects an unhealthy obsession that isn't immediately and frankly obvious? Some of the readers see it and comment on how creepy it is. Others miss it entirely and think the relationship is sweet, not disturbing. Is that poor writing? Is it all dependent on how many people figure out and understand what the author is doing?
I've written build-ups to certain emotions or scenes that I thought I had set up well. I get a lot of comments saying it was so sudden! I figure I've written poorly and the build-up had not been clearly expressed in my writing. But then I get other comments reflecting that commenter's grasp of the subtleties I thought I had written. Is that one commenter's opinion worth more than three opinions that I hadn't been clear enough? Is that one commenter just a more mature and experienced reader who more easily grasps the nuances of writing? Even if she were, did I still write poorly because the majority didn't understand? Do I compromise my writing integrity (is there such a thing) in order to write in a way more people understand, or would making things clearer be nothing more than clarifying and strengthening my writing?
As a reader, if I end up missing something - I may very well end up thinking the author is a poor writer because he or she didn't convey whatever they meant to as well as they should have. On the other hand, I reread books that I love a lot and realize, hey, look at all this foreshadowing and use of themes I didn't notice the first time around! That wasn't the author being unclear: that was me not picking up on things as I read.
So I mostly have a lot of questions and no definitive answers. There is a point, I think, where an author is objectively bad or a reader is just objectively Missing the Point. But there is, to me, a lot of gray area in the middle where two competent, intelligent people are just missing each other like (cliché alert) ships passing in the night.
My general (tentative and always subject to change, because meta is such an interesting topic to me) opinion is that we can all always improve. So even if an author thinks they're good but get told that they're getting misunderstood a lot - there is still room to tighten their writing and improve. Readers, likewise, can always increase their reading comprehension through more reading of well and precisely written stories.
In conclusion: I think too much about writing, especially when I've nearly given it up. Anyway, this is mostly just talking, so don't mind me. I've been ruminating on this topic for a while now. And now - back to procrastinating by reading!
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/takes your hand and frolics through happy fields of funtime :D
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Homg Mei, write me OnSica frolicking!
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But OnSica is so cute, so cute. :D I sort of actually care about SHINee now thanks to Hello Baby. Damn it!
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lol SHINee are like puppies. How can you not care?! Also OnSica is just precious. I want to rewatch that fancam of their duet.
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This randomly reminds me that I wanted to catch up on my manga~ Kimi ni Todoke and Bakuman and...stuff... Clearly I keep great track.
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lol i didn't like takari .but that's because i didn't really like kari or takeru.
mimi was presh. i shipped joumi since the beginning and felt vindicated during the movie
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But I love Mimi and Jyou and eeee. So cute. :D
WERE YOU GOING TO WRITE TAIORA? YOU SHOULD. I'D EVEN READ IT.
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Heh, Jomi.
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One thing I try to keep in mind is that in fandom, readers tend to be very casual and/or interested in a specific pairing you're writing, or maybe just porn. A lot of subtleties go unnoticed because whether a fic is exceptionally good/well-written/thoughtfully-crafted takes second place to whether it pleases the reader on some other level. Ngl, this makes me sad when I feel like I've worked really hard, but in the end there's nothing to do but be satisfied that I at least put effort into something that mattered to me. And possibly I am super pretentious but w/e.
On a funny/exasperating note, I am having the opposite problem with my latest fic (you know the one, reveals tomorrow/today!) where people are commenting on something that I don't think I portrayed well at all. Sigh.
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Eee still mean to go read all the k_x stuff but you also have to remember that we are our own worst critics. Sometimes it means that maybe we didn't suck so much. Or it could just mean that our audience isn't looking with the same critical eye we are to improve or with the same standards. u__u This is why I can't reread some of my stuff...
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akjsdhalk yeah, that too. By the way, not a k_x fic but highly recommended anyway because it almost made me cry (in a good way). (http://tretton.livejournal.com/25231.html) /adds to your to-read list
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Yes! Shindong tweeted about how there were rumors on the internet about how their concept would be vampires and he basically just loled and asked: So, Dracula or Twilight?
I'm of the opinion that it'll be hard to top 3jib and the amazing sexy suits so they should go for sparkles and make me laugh.
Eeee yay, adds! Thank you~
As for the SPN/J2 fic (which is mostly why I'm there really), I am updating my delicious (http://delicious.com/meiface) with stuff! :D There is a lot of good stuff. To return the rec favor.
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on the other hand. from the reader's perspective, if I read fic I read it for the shenanigans and the people. literary devices and stylistic decisions on the part of the author that work and that I notice are bonuses, but not entirely necessary.
slightly OT: when I write (which is, as you know, very rare) I don't make executive decisions to try things out with my writing; I want to tell a story and it just happens. sometimes people point things out and I'm like lololololwhat you just made my fic 10000x more intellectual than it actually is.
wrt the cultural thing: seeing as I'm mostly in western rps fandoms, oftentimes I miss a lot of references and inside jokes because I don't have that context to fall back on. I google things and ask my westerner friends about the tropes. so I wouldn't worry too much about it, unless you were writing an entire fic around that Egyptian Cultural Reference as a conceit.
more relevantly, idk if it's just me or you but I feel that most of the time I get what you're trying to do with your writing? though most of the time I'm also too lazy to mention it in my comment. so sometimes when I see a comment you receive that manages to completely miss the point I'm like all LOLOLOLOL STUPID.
so...yeah. IN CONCLUSION: REFER TO ICON.
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Ahaha yes sometimes readers do infer things that were never meant to be there - but I think I'm seeing more often readers missing things that the author obviously meant to put in there. Idk. Kind of like when you see comments that miss the point and lol, I see comments like that and go "BUT IT WAS SO OBVIOUS...to me... T_T" (whether as a reader or writer). I know I've gotten comments that are like: WAIT SO DOES THIS MEAN X AND Y AREN'T FRIENDS ANYMORE when, yeah, that was kind of the whole point of the fic. :[
slkghf whatever it's not like I'm all that amazing with language, it's just sometimes I can't figure out if I'm dumb or maybe it's other people...
LOVELY ICON THOUGH~
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Western RPS *is* really interesting! There's this distinction between the older style of talking-about-their-feelings style (see: arsenicjade) and the newer wave of boys-being-retarded-boys (see: every single Summer of Like fic EVER T____T) so yeah. I think in kpop fandom, from whenever I dipped my toes into it, it tends to be more experimental and less constrained by the actual speech patterns of the boys, because they speak in a different language, after all.
Those kind of comments...that you get...are...I think you shouldn't take them very seriously. Uh. Unless it's someone whose writing or intellect or whatever you know and respect who goes ?!!!? then maybe that's a problem. It's elitist of me to say so but it will make your life easier when it comes to judging your own writing.
Most of the time it's other people. XD
(I ♥ my discworld quote icons, omg *___*)
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You also make a good point about the language barrier in kpop fandom. No one really knows the "voices" of the guys so they can do whatever they want and call it canon. It becomes more in backing up your dialogue with believable action. Or something.
Sobbing, yes, well I didn't want to come straight out and say it but it is fine if you do!
(Discworld is imminently quotable!)
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Mm, I noticed that when I was betaing my friend's Arashi fic and later on her GK fic. Some of the characters she identified with in Arashi fandom took on more of her elements of speech, whereas I was constantly picking on cadences and manners on speech when betaing her GK fic. Also that "backing up dialogue with believable action" thing with non-English fandoms makes for the greater level of introspective or inward-turned writing in j/kpop fandoms, I think. Because it's more necessary to convey characterisation in a way that seems consistent with the context.
Hahahaahah that's me, saying all the politically incorrect and potentially inflaming things you can't. <3
(Unfortunately I don't have enough iconspace for all the quotes I want. D:)
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J2 lends itself really well to AUs, which is happy-making. I love a good AU with well-researched details and plausibility. :D
Yes, what you said about non-English fandoms and introspective justifications of characterization. I am so guilty of it and I don't know how to quit. Then again, I don't know how to quit (writing) kpop fic in general, ffff. I need to go back to Hikago fic for
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oh yes, J2. :D actually, I would think most RPF fandoms lend themselves naturally to AUs; what authors write is practically AU, in any case. unless you're talking about Drew Meekins' magical dick. XD
kpop fic is ridiculously easy to write! so I kind of sympathise with you ♥
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So you should write that CinHae!
Oooh pretty picture. Don't make me spam you with Jensen Ackles though. /so biased~
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BUT CAN JENSEN ACKLES QUAD SALCHOW? /cackles
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Interesting reads. I have to say, I take objection to the responsibility-free zone argued for in the last post you link to. The fact that some people enjoy something is not a compelling argument for its existence. It might be if what the poster said were actually true, and fanfic had no power to hurt people, but that's simply not the case. Fanfic, like any other writing, has the ability to reinforce stereotypes of oppressed groups and thereby do them damage in the real world, and this to me is not acceptable, even if in the process the fic somehow empowers another oppressed group. That is to say, even if, for example, straight women find it enjoyable or even empowering to portray male/male relationships in a way that objectifies these relationships, this is a problem because it has real life repercussions for queer men. The argument for taking homophobia in fanfic seriously is made quite eloquently here (http://paradox-dragon.livejournal.com/110753.html), and I think similar arguments can be made for (internalized) sexism, racism, transphobia, etc.
...can you tell I'm done with my academic year here? :D
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But yes thank you for this link! There is definitely a lot of entrenched and often unconscious homophobia/sexism/etc in people's writings that they don't realize they're reinforcing. /learns! It's all so fascinating...
YAY CONGRATS ON BEING DONE. I...haven't even started exams. orz
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Exams suck. :( But soon you'll have finished your second year! And isn't the third year of law school kind of fake, or something, since everyone gets their job locked during their second? I'm hoping this is true, at least, since I'm starting law school in the fall. (Note: !!!!!!!!!!)
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Post was specifically referencing Wincest and there was a talk about forcing opinions on way or the other people, but I thought the most interesting thread was this one (http://community.livejournal.com/fanficrants/9447202.html?thread=294124578#t294124578).
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(also idk you but congratulations!)
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It's not so bad. Back when I was fifteen, I'm pretty sure I was still reading or writing Mary Sue/Backstreet Boys fanfic... Or was that fourteen?
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gnnnnfrgh fandom has seriously made me so much more intelligent. sometimes I want to tell people "fandom!" when they ask me what sparked off my interest in anthropology.
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Fandom has led to learning about so many things alkdhfg seriously. Broadening of intellectual horizons!
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I know! and of course it has led to making wonderful friends. :)
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Is it shameful that I've been writing fic for five years, reading it for eight, and I didn't know what Meta Fandom was? >.>; I am so fail-face.
I LOVE stuff like this, and used to participate in it quite often - until I got into my fandoms enough that I found out that going from reading fanfiction from writers not into fandom to being surrounded by fandom meant problems. I didn't understand the whole label all the spoilers for the fic - and I still don't. But I shut my mouth and do it because apparently I'm terrible if I don't. I found out that the smallest crit can be judged as an attack - and I shut my mouth.
Secretly, I hate that I've conformed to my fandom so radically. I love fanfiction - writing it, reading it and talking about it - but I've held my tongue for years, not giving or getting the crit I'd like to. Not voicing my secretly strong opinions. As much as I love fandom for many things, I also have some serious bones to pick with it.
Because of fandom, I've sat down and shut up. I didn't want to deal with it anymore.
Honestly, I'm ashamed of myself.
I'm joining this comm in the hopes to actually speak out. I've wanted to for so long. Thank you for posting this!
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And a lot of it depends on the audience too - it always helps to approach with a reasonable mindset. Sometimes they won't though. Sometimes you'll never get through to them. But there will always be others to talk to, people who do stop and think and try to learn. :)
Most of all I just support trying our best to enjoy our time in fandom. That's what it's meant for, right? But of course it never hurts to learn more while we're here.