on the World Cup, racism, and national identity

[meitachi]

So I've been flailing about the World Cup a lot lately and it's been a tremendously needed distraction from the constant fail of humanity. I love humanity but I hate it at the same time; we are capable of such goodness and yet so much hatred and hurtful behavior. Once you open your eyes, you can't close them again: you can't unsee all the problems. Sometimes it gets incredibly frustrating and disheartening; sometimes, we need a break. But it's never something that goes away or something that doesn't matter to me, and it's something I keep track of in my mind because it is always important. I can't close my eyes if I tried.

So I want to talk about some of the racism and classism and viciously ignorant displays of privilege that I've seen lately in regards to the World Cup.


There are a lot of examples I could give but I want to focus on a few things in this post, hopefully ones that can serve as an example of the much larger, much more widespread problems.


1. ghana should stop wasting time on soccer because misery exists
In the wake of the USA v. Ghana match, where the USA lost, someone's friend on FB posts this: at least we've still got 'em on GDP, poverty rate, clean drinking water...maybe they have more important things to worry about than soccer

This is the post about it.

Most of the comments on that post agree with the OP that the status is reeking of privilege, paternalism, and classism (not to mention the implied assumption that all of Africa is poor, dirty, AIDS-infested); it is also implying that countries that are poorer than the US lack the right to enjoy sport or leisure. Because that right is something earned only when you have a perfect society where there is no poverty, no health concerns, and everyone has an equitable distribution of GDP. Oh wait. In that case, maybe the USA doesn't have a right to enjoy sport or leisue either.

But there are some comments that have to be taken with a grain of salt because people are people, and people are ignorant. This comment, for example, says "lol Americans" and proceeds to say that only Americans are racist and xenophobic and also their opinions are invalid because they call the sport "soccer" and not "footballl".

ORLY? Know a lot about 'soccer culture'? Clearly not, as it's FOOTBALL not soccer - people who call it 'soccer' know nothing about it. I have been a football fan since age 9, that's 25 years. I've been to many matches, and watch 1 or 2 matches on TV a week. I have NEVER EVER seen such a stupid, ignorant, nasty, xenophobic comment made by any proper football fan. What I have seen is similarly nasty xenophobic made by a certain type of American who cannot cope with defeat.

source

At least she gets called out for it. Here's a newsflash: not only Americans are racist and xenophobic.

Case in point, this video:
(Shared previously by nittle_grasper but again in the post I linked, so doubly relevant. Please note this video is talking about the 2006 World Cup.)

Sickened? Yeah, I am too.

I have to admit, the video rubs me a little the wrong way (DO NOT READ THE COMMENTS ON THE VIDEO) because it can be construed as Americans shaking their heads sadly at how racist Europeans can be while at the same time absolving ourselves of our own problems because we had a civil rights movement. Please don't get that out of the video. Please get this: THERE IS RACISM EVERYWHERE. It can be blatant, it can be unconscious and unintentional, but it is everywhere. It is always relevant, always hurtful, and always disgusting. It should never be tolerated, whether it's the act of throwing bananas onto a football pitch at a black player or whitewashing movies in Hollywood.



2. This segues into another issue very prevalent in the World Cup: national identity and pride.

I'll try not to make this post All About Me, but I have to confess in the interests of full disclosure that this is an issue I have been wrestling with for a long time (and very recently). If you ask me what I am, I say I am Chinese.

But that's not really who I am. It is a huge part, but I've lived in the US since I was 3. America has shaped my life and values and perception of the world in as great a part as the country that is my heritage, my culture, my roots, my family, and my motherland.

I am Chinese-American.

Yet, for all this, I've struggled with the concept of being "American". I had a very lengthy discussion with a friend about this, a friend who asked me point blank why I was supporting countries like England and Spain in the WC. Countries that I had never been to and had no ties to.

It was implied that, as an American, I should be cheering for America.



This is not screencapped from my FB, but is from this thread. It appalled me enough and struck a resonance with some of the implications that I've had thrown my way, that I wanted to repost it and talk about it.

Putting aside now how atrocious it is to invoke dead service members in an argument about what team you're cheering for in the World Cup and how completely erroneous this person's grasp of the freedom of speech is, let's talk about national identity and pride.

I was told that the World Cup is not just an international sporting event; it is an event where you are obliged to cheer for your country because they represent you. I said, no, for me that's not the case. I don't see supporting a team as an indication that I love and support the entire country and its people and embrace all of its faults and virtues.

I am merely supporting a team I'd like to see play good football. That's all.

My friend was offended that I could support Spain when they are so blatantly racist there and (as he generalized) wouldn't embrace me in return anyway. The entire country is hateful and racist, to him; he argues that the US is different because we're a melting pot and even if we still have issues, we are not quite so homogenous and whole in our racism. Remember that racist photo of the Spanish national basketball team from the Olympics? That's his proof. By supporting Spain in the World Cup, I am supporting racism.

To him, support of a team in the World Cup is tied to national identity and pride. He can't understand how I could possibly arbitrarily pick a country whose team I think plays well and decide to support them because I would like to see them win. He grew up with the Red Sox, the Bruins, the Patriots - they were his local teams. In his opinion, he had that right to them. It's an attitude I see a lot in sports - you only get to support this team if you grew up with them or have some tie to them ("my father supported them"; "I grew up in LA"; etc.). You don't get to support a team because you think they're good. A true fan sticks with their team through thick and thin, the good and the bad, after all; it's like a marriage. God forbid you pick a team that is good and then stick with them through thick and thin, though. It'll never be the same, you damned bandwagoner. You'll never know what it means to never walk alone.

To this friend, even if I am not expressing my national identity and pride through the team I support in the World Cup, it is how other countries express their nationalism. "In a way that inherently doesn't include us."

Holy generalization, Batman!

Here are some snippets of the conversation. I know they are excerpted and as such cannot provide the full context, but I'm doing my best to excerpt bits I think have points that can stand alone and are not twisting the words or intent from how they were originally given in the conversation. (NOTE: these are not necessarily sequential nor in reply to each other.)

mei: i mean... i am glad you feel like you have such an identity with the usa, don't get me wrong, but part of me wonders why i have to find a "my country"
mei: maybe one day i will be able to feel that way
mei: but who knows? maybe i will feel split for the rest of my life

him: i'm just arguing that even that ambivalence is a *uniquely american trait
him: and whether you like it or not, it seems to be a very *american character
him: that you're american, like it or not

him: race relations (especially about asians) are across the board worse in other countries, mostly because of the homogeneity of those countries
him: i mean, i don't want to sound like i know everything about growing up asian in those other countries because obviously i don't
him: but from what i know/seen, it's not even as close to what it's like here

him: i think as americans, we definitely have the luxury of identifying strongly with our ethnic and cultural backgrounds
him: so i don't mean to discourage any of your chinese pride
him: but just to point out that it is a luxury (and a struggle of identity) that's uniquely american... asian-american
him: so as to say that you can absolutely identify with both, which is in many ways a uniquely american identity
him: simply because we're a nation of immigrants, not just asian
him: like irish, jewish, italian, etc. immigrants before us
him: strong connection our ancestral land, but concurrently (and no less) american (to no detriment of our ethnic pride)

mei: see that actually touches on a point i was going to make, about how i will never really feel american when we are constantly "othered" by the majority......
mei: well then maybe the line is being drawn between american and asian-american
mei: because i can identify with the latter but not the former
mei: and part of that identification of being asian-american is that i don't feel the same loyalty/patriotism/idk to the u.s. that makes me support them as my representing country
mei: because so often i feel like they're only just representing an america that doesn't include asian-americans.
mei: the america that still asks "where are you really from?"
mei: and continues to, for example, whitewash any big budget films
mei: and our presence is continually erased
mei: huh this is enlightening
mei: like, i've heard the arguments about people wanting to see more representations of themselves in movies (esp with regards to the last airbender, how asian kids want asian heroes, etc.)
mei: but i think this is the first time i've come to that realization in regards to myself. i want more asian-american representation for what is supposed to be 'america' as presented to the rest of the world

mei: yeah, i don't know. maybe all the world cup has taught me, aside from football basics, is that i really have no idea who i am. nationality-wise or otherwise. maybe i just suck at labels.
him: you shouldn't be so preoccupied with it being labels... i don't mean to press anything on you, except to maybe say that your reluctance to accept one (the "american" one) isn't necessarily evidence that any other country's would be more appropriate

And I'm not sure I've reached a conclusion about our discussion of nationality and identity, which is lots of food for thought and a concept I am still struggling with for myself, except on this point:

I don't think I am trying to appropriate another country's identity or reject my own when I am picking a team in the World Cup to support and cheer on.

And that's really where I stand on this. I cannot argue how others feel about it (clearly I do know a lot of Americans who identify strongly with the US team and that's their choice, their feelings, and that's valid) but I do think it's problematic if people don't realize that not everyone feels the way they do. Just because one person sees support of a team as a sign of national identity and support does NOT mean every other fan does that, so let's not ascribe our feelings onto them. No one is being anti-American when they cheer on Ghana or Mexico or Spain.

Hey, did you know some people even support more than one team in the World Cup?

SHOCKING.



3. What is privilege? Do I have it and should I feel bad about it? What do I do about my privilege?

In the wake of all the discussions of racism and Haiti-fic, misogyny, rape culture, etc., an issue that comes up a lot is the idea of privilege. White privilege, straight privilege, and so on. I've been talking to a lot of people about it and a few of them have struggled to understand it - it feels like a judgement. It feels accusatory. I struggle to define it for them.

And then I read this post, and it is amazing. It was incredibly helpful for my understanding and I hope it helps with anyone else who might be struggling with the issue.

Understanding Your Privilege

This step is one of the most important ones I’m going to talk about. Understanding privilege is an ongoing process that will help you to understand how to participate in minority1 discussion/movements without taking over their space or feeling left out.

Learn to Listen Rather Than Speak
This one is a lot harder than it sounds, and I say this as someone who loves speaking and voicing her opinion on things. One of the greatest things we, as privileged people, can bring to a discussion being held by non-privileged groups is our closed mouths and open ears/minds. When you enter a minority space, you need to realize that this is their soapbox, not yours. Your privilege gives you many other soapboxes that you can take advantage of, so when participating in a discussion held by a non-privileged group or individual your primary goal is to pay attention to what they say about their issues, lives, and oppressions.

You Aren’t Bad for Having Privilege
You don’t have any control over the privilege you were given, and we get that. It’s important for you to get that, and get that we aren’t saying that, and then realize what that means when combined with your privilege to pretend that you aren’t privileged. Confused? Simply put: you aren’t bad for having privilege, but not being able to give up your privilege is not a ‘get out of jail free’ card for bad behaviour. So, what, then, to do about it? Well, finding a balance between accepting your privilege and fighting against it is not easy. I still struggle with it on a daily basis. But, one way to start is to listen to and take feedback from non-privileged groups. They are a good judge of how your actions come across to them. Not everyone’s opinions will be the same, but eventually you’ll come out with some semblance of balance that works for you and those around you.

Criticism is Not Hatred
Any time a non-privileged individual busts out with an angry critique (or even a nice one), someone will eventually come up with the, “I’m sorry you hate men/whites/heterosexuals/etc.” line. With rare exception, non-privileged individuals do not hate privileged individuals, but we do hate how many privileged individuals act! Learn to take criticism. Learn to not deflect it with excuses about how the non-privileged person is just angry, hateful, etc. Even if the person in question is angry, hateful, etc. Even if you, personally, don’t act that way.

You Can Only Sympathize, Not Empathize
This is probably the hardest one for me, personally, to wrap my mind around because I’m all about drawing links between oppressions. But, no matter how strong the link is, the facts remain that no two oppressions are the same. And it’s you, as the privileged party, who needs to be extra careful about when and how you draw links. While the intent may be to show solidarity, the result is all too often that you come off as defensive, trying to one-up the non-privileged groups and appropriate their oppression. This doesn’t mean you shouldn’t ever try to make connections, but rather that you should think about how the connections you’re drawing will come off to others.

It’s Okay to Make Mistakes
The road to understanding your privilege is one full of trial and error. What works in one situation may not work in another, and we may be clueless as to why. What is acceptable in society, may not actually be appropriate. Part of understanding our privilege is understanding how to apply it, and that will come with us screwing up now and again. We may be called on it, we may not be, but the important part is to learn from it. If you’re confronted about your behaviour, use what your confronter says to change your mind, don’t try to change theirs.

Please read the rest of this incredible and very informative post about privilege.


So those are some thinky thoughts I've been having. I am on the ranty side and may be somewhat incoherent in this post. I always worry I'm not communicating what I'm trying to communicate, or that I'm contradicting myself or not being aware enough of my own biases and privileges. But please let me know if that's the case; I need to learn too. As a reminder, The Last Airbender comes out this week and PLEASE DO NOT PAY TO SEE THIS MOVIE.

Now back to being nerve-wracked about the Spain v. Portugal game tomorrow!

Comments

[meiface.livejournal.com]

I did bring up Canada! He didn't have much to say about that, really, except that even Asians in Canada are usually clustered together in Vancouver and Toronto. I'm not entirely sure what the point of that is, except perhaps to say that Asians are still very much a minority even in Canada.

It's really interesting to hear your thoughts on it though! I know a lot of Canadians but still not much on how the culture subsists in regards to privilege and race. So much of the discussion is dominated by What Happens in America, sometimes with counter-examples or analogous examples provided from other Western countries. But Canada seems so often left out of the discussion, which is unfortunate.

As for the national identity bit, I've encountered that kind of attitude a little before, about how everyone Canada is really from somewhere else so they are all something-Canadian. And while, yes, it's true to an extent (and in the US too) that we are young, immigrant countries, I think it's completely unfair to try to deny someone the choice to identify themselves as what they feel. I don't feel wholly American because of a number of reasons, among them the fact that I was born in China and that China has hugely influenced the way I was raised, but I have so many friends (Asian and not) who do identify as solely American because that is who they are. So I think if you feel like you are Canadian, no one should be trying to tell you that you are something-else-Canadian.

After all, identity is something personal, not something that should be ascribed by others.

(Though, to talk a bit more about my experience, I think I may be hesitant about embracing the American identity more because, for me, American still = white in my head. And I don't know if that's a product of my own prejudices or of how very dominiant white privilege remains today (probably both), but to me there IS detriment and erasure of my ethnicity and Chinese identity if I allow myself to say, hey, I'm American and not qualify that with, no, I'm Chinese-american.

Plus, people will still ask "where are you from" "NC" "no, where are you really from? Originally from?" There is still a sense of being an outsider, of being "othered" even by other Asian-Americans. Less so, but then consider the majority. The majority will always see my outside, my skin color, the ethnic face I present. And they will not default to "American", they default to "not-American" even despite the immigrant history of the US. And this is why they're surprised that my English is so good, wow! There is something very tied into color, that Jewish-Americans and Irish-Americans don't generally face every single day of their lives.

...tl;dr sorry!)

[herocountry.livejournal.com]

The thing I hate about Canada (being a Canadian) is that the bigotry here is so overlooked, just because we're Canadian, we're so nice, we're practically socialist! No, our prejudice is just that more subtle and difficult to call out because of this culture of denial >:(

Also I dislike our 'multicultural' policy because basically it ends up being a bunch of separate festivals where it's like, only THERE can you be ethnic and different, look how cultural we are allowing you your space and celebrating your Otherness OK NOW THAT IT'S OVER SHUT UP AND SIT DOWN.

>:(

[herocountry.livejournal.com]

YOUR POSTS ARE THE BEST

[meiface.livejournal.com]

I WOULD NOT HAVE MADE IT WITHOUT YOUR PUSH so thank you.

[mayawelstead.livejournal.com]

This was very interesting! I didn't even realise the same sorts of things were bothering me until reading about it. Unfortunately I am somewhat self-absorbed and often need these issues spelled out for me :( But I do appreciate the significance of privilege and racism and gender/sexuality/etc prejudices. I am just still learning how to apply them to myself and others appropriately. Thank you for your help on my journey. :)

I am also not going to endorse Avatar: The Last Airbender. I agree that the blatant whitewashing is disgraceful and I only hope enough people understand and agree that we can make a difference.

[meiface.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure exactly what part of the post you're talking about (with regards to things that were bothering you) but I am glad all the same that you felt like you could identify! I am learning too and part of my journey is basically inflicting my thoughts on other people and hoping they can be insightful or thought-provoking to others who are on similar journeys. :) Reading other people's words have done a lot for me, so I'm grateful.

It is very awesome to hear your stance about the Airbender movie. This is the week, of all weeks, we should be making our voices heard about this!

[konnistique.livejournal.com]

In regards to #2. I think I can sort of understand where your friend is coming from. Because while some of us don't think it's a bad thing to support whoever we want, it's not the same in other countries. I think, the more homogeneous a country is, the more national pride they hold and the less they'll appreciate someone from a different country to support them (seeing as we have nothing to do with them in the first place and probably can't identify with them). I always think that there will be some Koreans/Japanese/Spanish people who won't appreciate my support. But that is just a thought and I'm sure not everyone in the country is like that! In this time and age, I think more and more people are accepting.

On the other hand, this World Cup has made me realise that yes, I can support a country other than Australia. In fact, one of my friends in my Spanish class asked me last month, "So, you're watching the WC this season? Cool! What country are you supporting?" and I thought... hey, you mean, just because I lived in Australia my whole life, doesn't mean I have to support them? Cool! ..So maybe, I think it just comes down to, well, mostly preference and acceptance. But also how multicultural your country is? Because homogeneous counties have yet to experience what it is like to have mix cultures, and I think this is entirely differently to being racist.

[meiface.livejournal.com]

I can see, to an extent, both sides of it. It's weird. On one level, I don't want to support a team or athlete simply because they are the same nationality as me. Why should I be obliged to support Andy Roddick just because we're both American? On another level, I do get it because the Chinese part of me goes: dude! Chinese athlete! Must support!

Then again, I have to remember the context: the fact that Chinese athletes (at least in most of the Western-dominated sports I follow) are very heavily the minority, very underrepresented. So it makes sense to want to support the few who do break into the sport.

Of course on a whole other level, I want to be able to support an athlete or team just because I think she or they are good, without getting into the whole national identity bit.

As for whether some Korean/Japanese/Spanish people not appreciating our support - I just don't understand. Why wouldn't they? I'm not saying they would necessarily understand my support since I don't have those ties to their country, but I'm hardly trying to claim I'm Korean/Japanese/Spanish and I most of the time get the sense that they'll take any support they get. It's a solidarity of sorts. Of course, these are just my feelings on it; I'm sure there do exist people who would resent others for supporting their country without being from that country.

Homogeneous societies are not in themselves racist, no, but I think they do invite/support/provide an environment for an incredible amount of racism because they are so homogeneous and are not forced to confront other cultures or races and so on.

[kasugai-gummie.livejournal.com]

I'm not even going to attempt to respond to this entire post because it'd be emotionally draining and infuriating at points (your friend is. missing. the. points. And I don't need another reason to up the ante to my misanthropy tonight.)

I applaud you for writing it though. Can definitely relate to many of the points you brought up--especially the whole identity deal. As someone born in China, but grown (lol, like soy) raised in Canada, and also jumping through hoops to get that USA citizenship, I can only imagine what kind of bitchfaces I'd be forced to pull if I ever had to explain why I don't feel permanently obligated to any of the aforementioned countries. Thankful yes; loyal to the point of patriotism/nationalism, never.

And food for thought--we're all somewhat bigoted to varying degrees, whether we like it or not. It's those who blatantly reject this fact into the depths of hypocrisy that really make me wish I wasn't so disapproving of eugenics. Educated, privileged social class--can we please stop nurturing the stupid?

[meiface.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the national identity thing is something I've been thinking about for a while. I think a part of why I'm embracing the Chinese side more than the American side right now is that I rejected the Chinese side so vehemently as a kid; I actually distinctly remember the arguments I had. I think it's safe to say I'm thankful and grateful for the shaping influences of both countries and am still working through how I feel about the "nationalism" bit. But I am really not okay with someone else telling me how I should feel or identify. Their identity and experience is theirs; I'd thank them not to force it onto me.

Yes, we're all bigoted to some degree and it's pointless to try to put our hands over our eyes or ears and pretend it doesn't exist. The first step to countering any of it is to at least acknowledge it. :\ Not just push it onto other people and claim we're innocent.

[peachpastiche.livejournal.com]

yes, america is unique

that's why there's, you know

canada, australia, ALL OF THE FUCKING UK and plenty of other countries that don't get trotted out as multicultural utopias because they're not majority-white

I've definitely heard the whole "no one is just Canadian" thing though. Especially in the way that people tend to use "American" as shorthand for white, I've had minor communication snafus with Canadian friends that way. (e.g. "Is he Asian?" "He's Canadian." "...so is he Asian?")

[meiface.livejournal.com]

So many thoughts, not enough coherency to express them all. :( It probably doesn't help that it's early in the morning, I haven't eaten anything, and the game is distracting me. Talk more to me though! Whenever. About whatever. ♥

[black-goose.livejournal.com]

you are so eloquent, urgh, I do not know how you do this. Basically, I agree with everything you say but I haven't really come across much of the "if you don't support England, you're anti-English!" stuff. To be honest, a lot of that is because no one expected us to do that well. I was called unpatriotic because I wasn't even watching but meh, that was just my parents joking. My dad's workplace is having this sweep thing where you have to predict the results or something? and one of his colleagues was like "this is more important to me than England winning".

Buuuuut Europe has racism. Ohhh, we have racism. It might not be as fraught as yours, but it's there. We have a bonafide Nazi party in my country and it wins seats. There was a long discussion at work yesterday about how it is "common knowledge" that when the fair comes, things go missing around the area (i.e. look at the gypsies stealing our stuff). It is a different kind of racism than what the Americans have, but it drives me crazy all the same. Especially since people don't see it as racism. I want to scream, I really do.

[taylormercury.livejournal.com]

Oh my god the goddamn BNP, it's absolutely shocking that they got seats, isn't it? And that they get away with being so blatantly racist. The very fact that their party did not allow non-white British into it, until they were forced to change this, just stuns me. That's racism, clearly on display right there. And their policy ideas about sending away all non-white British people boiled my blood. What about the minorities that were born and have lived here all their lives?!

Gah sorry OT, but the blatant racism we have here makes me want to scream sometimes, too.

[meiface.livejournal.com]

I only make attempts at coherency! A lot of it is probably just lurking and reading a lot and eventually figuring out how to say things the way I want to. It's really interesting how you mentioned not as much "you're unpatriotic if you don't support England!" because haldir just linked this article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8733373.stm) to me and it's really fascinating. Of course, Scots and Welsh and Irish can't really be accused of being "unpatriotic" if they don't cheer for England since they aren't English. But still, interesting to see how other countries have that sort of guilt-tripping mechanism too. In the case of the article, it's not that you're unpatriotic, it's that you're racist? @_@

But hey! It is awesome to hear you talking about this stuff with Mica. /reads your thread, learns about how it is in England.

[taylormercury.livejournal.com]

This is a very long post, and I applaud you for writing it all up and writing it all up coherently! There is a lot here, and there's a lot that I can't personally identify with either (being white, and English. Well I'm English/Canadian, but that's not really a thing so I've not had to go through similar issues as you) so I don't feel that I can comment too much on that aspect of this post.

But what gets me the most is the idea that you (or anyone) can support the World Cup team that you want to. The idea that you are expected, and have to support the country that you're from, boggles my mind. I wonder if this has happened to you because the US is more known for its patriotism and national pride than, say, England. (Because the team is England, and I can't talk about the rest of the UK). I can understand liking your country, and I can understand being patriotic to an extent, but the World Cup is just a giant football match between many different teams, and I see nothing wrong with supporting a team that you like and think plays well.

I don't think that a person necessarily has to have ties to a country in order to support them or want to see them do well in a sporting event. (Neither do I see anything wrong with supporting America because you're American, and what not, it's the expecting other people to support them just because that bothers me).

Perhaps it's because I'm from England, and the only time the majority of the country is even all that patriotic and has much sense of national pride (from what I see) is during the World Cup. Otherwise, people just don't seem to care that much. More often than not, England's national holiday day thing goes forgotten, or under celebrated. And concerning football support more specifically, there are loads of teams across the country for all different cities/towns, and no one here has a problem, say, supporting Man U, if they grew up in London (again, from what I see, and I don't follow football or talk about it to people, so this is what I sieve from observations over time).

This feels really tl;dr and incoherent, but I wanted to comment, and especially on that point of your post (as it boggles my little mind) and throw in a few of my observations and thoughts about it. I hope I'm making sense :/

[meiface.livejournal.com]

It is a very long post - evidently I had a lot more to say than I expected. Thanks for reading through!

Yeah, I don't care why anyone supports the WC team(s) they choose to support, but it's the bit where someone is trying to force their logic or choice onto someone else that really, really bothers me.

And I guess I can't speak much about how patriotism/national pride works in other countries (besides the US and China, which at least I've had experience with), but in my experience, I do see a lot of Americans get very...het up with excitement about patriotism and sort of demanding it of other people. I mean, um, I certainly don't hate America as a whole (lots of problems I have with it, sure, but I think that's true of any person and their country), but I certainly don't feel a sense of national obligation to support them in a sporting event. And I know I'm not the only one. So it would be cool if people stopped being so jingoistic.

Also, it was interesting to read your thread w/ Laura! :D

[haldir.livejournal.com]

perhaps only slightly related, but i would love to get your opinion on this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8733373.stm).

lj ate the first half of my comment and i don't feel like retyping my babbling, which can be summed up as "i definitely think your points about national identity are interesting and hugely valid."

[meiface.livejournal.com]

TY for the link to that article! It was really interesting.

I think it's problematic to clump everyone who doesn't support England (or more accurately, who support ABE) as the same. There probably are people who see it as a sports rivalry, as a "I never cheer for them, why change my mind now?" I sort of understand that because there's a really really fierce college basketball rivalry between my school (UNC) and a nearby one (Duke); we always say we root for two teams: UNC & anyone playing Duke. Even when we're both in the same conference and people say we should want each other to do well to, idk, bring glory to our conference, it will never happen.

On the other hand, I think it's unfair to dismiss the historical and political implications in the UK between England, Scotland, Wales, and (Northern) Ireland. I wouldn't be surprised at all if people were influenced by those issues in choosing not to support England, which I also think is fair. Honestly, I think people should be free to choose to support whatever team they want, or to not support whatever team they want, and to do so for whatever reasons that are their own. I just am so not comfortable with people forcing the reason behind their choices onto others.

That said, I also get how the massive assumption by the media that everyone is (or should) support England would get very irritating. I was supporting the US more before our media went on and on and on about them, extolling them like heroes and making them out to be a team that obviously everyone in the US supported because they carried our dreams, or whatever. The hype can be a serious buzzkill.

Oops, rambly long reply. But thank you for the comment even though LJ ate most if it. :(

[forochel.livejournal.com]

I HAD SO MANY THINGS TO SAY BUT I THINK THEY BOIL DOWN TO THE FACT THAT YOUR FRIEND MAKES ME WANT TO PUNCH HIM IN THE FACE. RAGEPANTS! NOT ONLY AMERICANS HAVE THE RIGHT (WHICH IS HOW IT COMES OFF FROM HIS WHOLE LUXURY SPIEL) TO BE CONFLICTED ABOUT THEIR IDENTITY AND AMERICA IS NOT THE ONLY IMMIGRANT COUNTRY AND ASIAN ISN'T JUST ONE RACE AND ALSO OUR RESERVES ARE BIGGER THAN YOUR FUCKING DEFICIT, GOD. Americans being superior about themselves! *PUNCHES*


IDK ABOUT WC AND NATIONALISM BECAUSE LOLOLOL THAT DOESN'T EXIST IN SINGAPORE (I THINK, THOUGH MY FRIEND SAID SHE MADE A BOY IN HER CLASS CRY IN PRIMARY SCHOOL BECAUSE SHE TOLD HIM THE SINGAPORE NT WOULDN'T MAKE IT TO WC 2010) UMMM WHATEVS. HATERS GONNA HATE.


THANKS FOR LINK WILL READ IT!!!!

[meiface.livejournal.com]

Oh my god Mishy when he broke out that argument I sort of just "..."ed for a bit. I was like, "okay...I guess I don't know what it's like to be Asian in Brazil or Asian in Spain, but I feel like they probably also struggle with identity? Even if some of them identify as Brazilian or Spanish, surely some of them still wrestle with what that means, because if those countries are so homogeneous, then the fact that they are Asian and look different will probably cause some sort of reflection on identity?"

I just...don't understand how he can dismiss their struggles as, idk, meaningless as compared to the struggle whatever-Americans deal with. I'm sure the struggle is different, just because yes the culture and society is different, the US is factually much more of a melting pot than many other countries, but... I am positive a Chinese-French person could also struggle over whether they are Chinese or French or both.

IDEK. But yes, the link is fabulous!