meitachi | oh.

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oh.

Q: Your best friend is gay and asks you out. What will you do?
A: I’ll refuse. I’ll vomit on his face and then I’ll introduce him to a good-looking guy.

(from this interview)
ETA: halcyon_morn's updated translation from original text here

I guess I blame not paying attention to kpop for the fact that I only I heard about Sungmin's violently appalling homophobic comment in the past few days. I have to say that not only am I really disappointed but also surprised. Maybe I shouldn't be, but considering how well he handled the Only 13 and boycotting SNSD incidents - I guess I believed better of/hoped better from him.

And let's not try to over-generalize here with a sweeping statement about how we have to take into account how homogenous and conservative and homophobic South Korean culture is, because while there may be grains of truth in there, I don't want to try to excuse what he said on the basis of gross stereotypes about his country. In fact, I don't really want to excuse what he said at all. I can understand, maybe, where the homophobic sentiment comes from but--

I’ll vomit on his face

Really.

I'm not going to assume one way or the other about Heechul's gender identity or sexual orientation, but when asked "What do you think about homosexuals?" he replied: What do I need to think about it for;;

Heechul might (in my mind, very likely) be bisexual (or even homosexual). He could definitely be genderqueer. But since he's not exactly going to come out and make an announcement, I'm not going to pin him down with any label: he might just be completely straight and homophobic too. Who knows? Yet to me there is still a world of difference between his answer, whatever the "intent" behind it is, and Sungmin's.

Granted, I am a mostly straight and cisgendered female who is still figuring this stuff out, so those of you who actually have the right to talk about these things, please tell me if you think I am dead wrong.

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Isn't this from one of those really really old Q&A's that some of them used to post on the internet before debut? Cause Donghae had a load posted too from pre-debut, and I think I can remember seeing this one of Sungmin's a long, long time ago. Which would put it to what, 4-5+ years old?

Not saying that what he says is right, of course, and at the time I read this I was incredibly disappointed in him, whatever the standards are in Korean culture, vomiting on someone is so over the top and awful. So I'm not defending him, but if this was five or more years ago, he may just have changed his views and opinions on this in that time? It's a horrible thing to say, regardless, and perhaps it's just because I remember reading about this a long time ago, but I don't remember seeing anything else quite so extreme from him since then, and there is the possibility that he's grown and realised he was wrong, over this time. Or at least become less extreme than wanting to vomit on his friend for being gay.

I don't know, I don't like Sungmin and I haven't for ages, but it's hard for me to judge him when I don't know how he feels about this five (or however many!) years after the fact. At the time he said it though, there was a huge amount of disappointment. And I'm still not saying that it was right for him to say, or giving him any excuses! (I always feel so incoherent when I try to discuss things ;~;)

No, don't worry, I definitely get what you're trying to say. :) I wasn't sure when he answered this interview (I dug around a bit but no one seemed to give me a date and everyone seemed to link to the same blog...) and his answer is definitely disappointing and not okay, regardless, but if it's an old interview there is definitely hope he's changed his views since then. (I'm just thinking how stupid I was five years ago so--)

Here is hoping he no longer feels this way, that it is an old interview. Not because I want a reason to like him, but because it would be nice if more people could realize that the hurtful and awful things they used to think are wrong and be able to grow and change their minds.

Yes! You summed up what I was really trying to say there, but more coherently, and in less words XD A lot of those Q&A's were shared and posted when SuJu had still been a newly debuted group (my god, remember this makes me feel OLD) and I'm almost certain this is one of those that a lot of the other boys answered and posted on their cyworlds while still trainees, which would put Sungmin as to being quite young. (I don't remember, but if you went back to the very beginning of the Super Junior community, there may still exist the original translation of this interview shared there, and when it was from!)

But yeah, a lot can change in the space of five years, seeing all the things they've gone through together as a group, and individually, leads me to hope that he may have become broad-minded enough to realise that it being gay/bi/whatever anyone wants to be, doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, and that he doesn't feel so extreme about it.

He still might, for all we know, but there is reason to hope that he might have changed in time, anyway! Because as you said, it would be nice if people could come to learn and grow and realise that things like this are wrong.

(I'm rambling again, I'll be quiet now XD;;)

hehe I enjoy your rambling! :D But yes, we are definitely in agreement. (And also in feeling old, oh man. At least in Inception fandom, my age is about average and not on the "oh my god so old" end of the spectrum, haha.)

oh. :/

(i'm in too much of a good mood and five minutes away from tumbling into bed and well, that's the only thing my mind can come up with right now.)

go to sleep in a good mood, bb! "oh" pretty much sums this up.

yeah, i mean you can probably find half a dozen halfway legitimate excuses for this, but the point still stands that, well, yeah. :/

yo, ilu. ♥

omg that jcho icon :')

...wow. I'm not even sure what else I have to say about that. :\

while this does not in any way make his answer okay or better, the interview is likely old, Mica tells me, so maybe we can still hold out hope that he's changed his mind since then.

Yeah, I am still extremely disappointed (kind of shocked, even, by the delivery more than the sentiment), but if he's changed his mind that's, well, an indication of maturity and personal growth some other people aren't capable of. Yeah, let's hope for that.

No proof of that but -- I will hope, anyway, because I need to retain hope for humanity in general to have the kind of maturity and personal growth to be able to change their minds.

I had pretty much the same reaction as you when I found out about this a year or so ago, and seeing as Sungmin was (is?) my favorite, I was desperate to find out whether or not it was true. After much scouring of the Korean interwebz, I found the original text, which reads:

정말 친한 친구가 게이다!! 나보고 사귀자고 하네? 어떻게 할 것인가:
A really good friend of yours is gay!! And he's asking you to go out with him? What will you do:
거절한다. 얼굴에 토해준다. -ㅠ- 그리구 잘생긴 남자를 소개시켜준다...
I'll turn him down. I'll throw up in his face. -ㅠ- And then I'll introduce him to a good-looking guy...

In other words, it's not a problem that his friend is gay—he'd be more than happy, in fact, to introduce him to a nice guy—but the idea that Sungmin is gay is just so appalling that he has to vomit all over anyone who has the temerity to entertain it. This kind of reaction is typical of a closet case who's in denial even to himself. Of course, Sungmin being gay and self-hating wouldn't excuse what he said—if anything, it would only make it more tragic—but I can't help but feel like I know what was going on inside the kid's head when he gave this answer (five or so years ago, as Mica said) and I feel for him.

I think I was actually more angry at Hyukjae's answer to a similar question:

동성애에 대해서*..*..*━☞ 안돼~ 지옥가요
About homosexuality*..*..*━☞ No good/don't do it~ you'll go to hell

Callous much?

Oh Chris, thank you for this. Like you said, it doesn't excuse what he said, but I really do appreciate the fuller context. It's also slightly more in line with the Sungmin I have in my head - not perfect, no, but more along the lines of someone who'd try to be understanding about these things (especially in light of his reaction to Only 13/SNSD boycott), even if not exactly getting the point. It doesn't make anything okay but it makes things make more sense. And I still hope, like I told Mica, he's since changed his mind. But who knows.

Ngl, Chris, Hyukjae's always struck me as incredibly conservative/religious and rather, huh, let's say, strict about his beliefs. I can't say I'm surprised at all. :/

Edited 2010-09-25 20:06 (UTC)

he has to vomit all over anyone who has the temerity to entertain it.

I have no idea why, but this kind of made me laugh. Not the gay part, that's why I omitted that, but just this mental image of Sungmin going around throwing up all over people. Omg why am I like this?

what

halcyon_morn said. I'd always read it more as a comment on Sungmin himself, as in "why the hell would he go for me?", as Sungmin has never struck me as someone with the greatest amount of self-confidence (he's always talking about how he needs to improve in everything). Hence why it's "person" and not strictly "girl". Mistranslations can always cause this sort of thing.

Still very not okay with the visceral "homosexuals are okay as long as they don't hit on me because that's disgusting" reaction, but on the whole, the clarification from Chris helps make more sense of Sungmin's answer. (And more consistent with what I've seen of Sungmin - not to say that I think I ~know~ him or anything just from being a fan, hah, no, but he has struck me as someone who tries to be understanding/inclusive. E.g., see incidents mentioned in the post.)

Edited 2010-09-25 20:44 (UTC)

except his answer, mistranslation or not, shows that he's repulsed and horrified by the idea of someone perceiving him as a homosexual. it's not like a compliment that he can't accept because he's suffering from low self-esteem or whatever.

What I find interesting about this is the fact that Sungmin, like Heechul, is one of the ones a lot of the...I can't think of the word I want to use, but I hope you know what I mean when I say people just assume he's gay? And I think his image in the beginning would easily give people the wrong impression. So perhaps he was being so insistent about it (judging from

halcyon_morn's translation) was because he wanted to make it clear that no matter what appearances might say, he wasn't like that.

And yet despite that, that comment still bothers me. So much. *sigh*

Edited 2010-09-25 21:53 (UTC)

Could very well be that kind of kneejerk defensive statement because, I agree, people look at Sungmin and scream "oh my god he's totally gay" (hurray for stereotypes, people!), and I can see his reaction being very "shut up, I'm not!" (Also why he's begged people to stop passing around that picture of him in the red dress.) But, well, that kind of attitude with that kind of delivery is still so much not okay. Not just, "I'd turn him down" but also to addbest friend, mind)-- It's all very "...oh. :("

So very not okay. Even with the pervasive culture and his age at the time, it's definitely an "...oh. :|" sort of moment.

I do like to hope he's since grown out of such behavior, though. I really, really do.

oh oops I borked my html adlkhg. Ugh. But I think you got what I was saying, that to not just say "I'd turn him down" but also to add on a rather...vitriolic response... No.

Agreeing - not just for him, but because I want hope that more people can grow and change. :(

The "vomit in his face" part is definitely out of line, but I felt like the "and then I’ll introduce him to a good-looking person" part is like, a self-confidence issue on his part, like he wouldn't get why his gay friend would like him because he thinks he looks ugly? I DUNNO.

I'LL JUST SAY THAT SUNGMIN WAS NEVER MY FAVORITE, SO I'M NOT DEFENDING HIM OR ANYTHING. THAT WAS JUST MY INITIAL INTERPRETATION WHEN I READ THE QUOTE.

Oh I should edit the clarification

halcyon_morn included into my entry, actually. Sungmin apparently said "vomit in his face and then introduce him to a good-looking guy". So...he's okay with his best friend being gay so long as the guy's not trying to, gasp, date him.

Really I have about said everything on this topic that I want to. The clarification helps me understand the context a bit more, I'm still very much not okay with what was said, but it was many years ago and I hope hope hope he has changed his mind/opinion on things like this.

That comment is so confusing in so many ways. Especially since it seems he would introduce the friend to a good-looking guy. There's self confidence issues and typical homophobic "as long as it's not me" issues there. But this was from a long time ago, and I hope that either he made a bad attempt at a joke or that he's changed since then. Even then, it's not really an okay comment in itself, but I believe in second chances lol.

Honestly I don't see any self-confidence issues in what he said. He doesn't imply at all he doesn't think he's not good-looking; he's only saying "EW NOT ME NOT ME but as long as it's not me, I'll do what any good friend would do and introduce you to someone hot!"

hmm, perhaps you're right. i think i am somewhat influenced by the self confidence problems i see in him in general

That's odd-- I don't read "I'm not very good-looking" in the last part of his comment at all. Unless he specifically emphasized "good-looking", it's much closer to "a good-looking guy that isn't, you know, me, because I'm a little busy vomiting". Anyway, I feel like a socially liberal attitude in Korea mostly stems from higher education, self-reflection, maturation, and encounters with diversity, so... idol group members probably don't have much going for them re: improvement in this regard. Maybe he's changed his views, but I don't know what would have motivated him to.

I agree about the reading of the comment. It gives off the vibe of "gay people are okay as long as they're not hitting on me! but you're my friend so I would do for you what I'd do for any friend - introduce you to someone hot (in the gender you are interested in)." Which is better than introducing you to someone hot of the opposite gender, at least, but... still retains the rather problematic "I'll vomit on you if you try to date me" mindset...

And yeah, I am really not all that optimistic about his changing his mind, but I would like to hold out some hope for humanity in general. I mean, I don't think I was ever that homophobic but I sure was dumb and I managed to wise up and do some personal growth! So there is hope for everyone.

fuck that attitude. :| the whole 'gay people are okay as long as i don't have to see them kissing' or 'gay people are okay as long as one of them doesn't ask me out' way of thinking is so fucked up and hypocritical.

you know what really gets my back up? guy finds out his friend is gay and is like, WOAH I'M NOT INTO THAT. i'm sorry, but what sort of arrogant dick automatically assumes the gay friend is into them? my standard response would be: oh don't worry, you are from my type. :) i like, you know, attractive people.

but then i'm bitchy like that. :|

/returns to shipping arthur and merlin. SPEAKING OF LOL MEI HAVE YOU SEEN COLIN PLAYING THAT GAY GUY ON THE CATHERINE TATE SHOW?

haha not just even "you're not my type; I like attractive people" - it'd be more like, "don't worry, you're not my type! I like non-bigots and clearly you aren't that. :)"

ugh, yes, this whole thing gets my back up.

But, no, I have not seen Colin in anything! I barely keep up with Merlin as it is, much less the actors outside of it. ;_;

lmfao, this. "i don't date assholes."

LOL IT'S SO CUTE, HIS RUFFLED BED HAIR. ):

lol omg he has so much hair! he looks so tiny and young and lolol wtf. "have you heard about our John?"

also ceriii ;_; I fell down and bruised my hand. /sad

i know! omg i miss all his hair. ): he looks so pretty. lmfao, i love how that guy is like so~ how about it~

awwww, bb. :( your poor hands are in the wars lately /kisses better. how did you do that?

haha by being bad at walking akldhgfj. I was distracted and tripped and caught myself with my hands and now they hurt. My life, what a tragedy. orz

ajfklsd, idek what to say. hugs you. laughs into your hair. shakespeare would have a field day with you.

:( you should write and tell me how it goes! I'm off to pick up a package then come back and...think about actually starting on this Inception big bang business...

i've just posted actually. :) 6.5k ain't bad for a weekend! and i referenced pictures of them for you, LOL, just so you can appreciate their prettiness~

when's inception big bang due in? your idea is really good so don't stress about it, chwtch. :)

hahah I wish I knew... I think it's due in December...there might be some sort of deadline before that; obviously I am not paying attention. orz

But yay your fic! Going to read now! :D

that's plenty of time! provided school doesn't suddenly dump a ton of work on you, i'm going to look forward to a gorgeous story. :) NOT THAT I'M PRESSURING YOU OR ANYTHING. IN ANY WAY.

jesus buggering fuck

:|

:| sums it up, yeah.

Yeah. :(

(deleted comment)

Honestly, I'm not okay with either of their responses. I don't believe any religion that emphasizes love and acceptance justifies homophobia; that's overwhelming social context and personal fear using religion as a mask to bolster their individual feelings. Homophobia, in my opinion, is absolutely not justifiable, whether or not because of religious beliefs or social ones.

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