meitachi | tell me also your feelings for the oxford comma

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tell me also your feelings for the oxford comma

Inquiring minds wish to know:

[Poll #1808211]

Tell me more! Does second person feel like Choose Your Own Adventure? Does first person make you feel closer to the narrator? Do you hate constant switching between character POVs regardless of whether it's first person or third person?

Is there a difference between your preferences in fic versus your preferences in published fiction? (I ask because I tend to associate first person POV in fic with self-inserts or amateur writers on the whole (with some glaring exceptions - thank you, femmequixotic) but am far more amenable to putting up with it in published fiction.)

I've written in second and third person before, ~~but I can't remember when (if) I wrote in first person, which is why I'm considering trying it out.~~ (Oops I totally forgot my favorite of my kpop fics was written in first person, haha, fail. I do want to keep experimenting with it though!) Do you find one easier than another? I have read excellent fic in all three (four, if you count third-limited and third-omniscient separately) POVs before though, so I have absolute faith that all can be written well. I admit, I'm actually more likely to read a second-person than a first-person POV in fic, but third-limited is my favorite overall. What about you?

Everyone has opinions, of this I am sure. Share them? :D

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For me, first person works only when I'm either in a fandom where the canon is in first person or when I'm reading an original narrative. I really can't stand reading first person in TV fandoms or third person fandoms mainly because I don't find it easy to assume the thoughts of someone who has already made am impression on me. When you read in first person, there's a little expectation to lose yourself as the person...and it's easier if you don't come to the story with expectations.

I don't tend to like second person fics because it feels too distant.

Third person is my preference for fanfic. Unless, as I early stated, the canon is a first person canon.

Huh...LJ notifs are not timely.

I think I agree with your thoughts on first person - it's definitely easier to approach original fiction with it than to fandoms/narratives that have already been established as third person in canon. Of course, always with the well-written exceptions, because I've read fantastic first person POV HP fic (after I get over my initial reluctance, hah).

Second person in fic, in my experience, tends to be used extremely pretentiously, for some sort of ~artistic~ feel. I've also seen it used really effectively though. I guess it will always depend on the writing!

Generally for fic, I prefer third person, and for published fiction, I'll take either third person or first person though I tend toward the former. I don't like second person POV that much b/c it seems so ~dramatic, so if I see it, I probably won't read it (though there have been a couple pieces, which I really liked; they were original writing).

I don't like switching between characters' POVs b/c mostly it's jarring. I think the caveat is always 'if it's well-written', which I think is mostly true b/c if it's well-written you hopefully won't get distracted by technical mishaps (e.g., too much tell instead of show, characters don't speak/think/act like real people, etc.). I think in fic I'll stick to strictly third person whereas I'm more flexible about first vs. third in published fiction. I don't think I could stick to second person for a long piece of work.

Also, oxford comma forever! :D

YES, ALWAYS ♥

I don't mind some switching between character POVs but even in professional writing I've seen it done poorly which makes me grumpy about the entire thing. :F It can be a sign of bad writing, I think, if you can't manage to tell your story within only one POV but have to go hopping between characters. (Not always true, especially in epic sagas, but a lot of times I've seen it, it's to ~give sudden insight~ from one character who has knowledge another character doesn't. So, kind of lazy, imo.)

I'm so intrigued by how many people hate second person! I don't blame them at all, since it's a common thing and rarely well done, but it makes me want to hunt down amazing second-person fic/original work, haha.

Third limited is probably my favourite and go-to. I think first person POVs can be truly excellent, but there's not a lot of writers I can think of who can pull it off -- for me, what makes a first person POV great is if the voice has something unique or interesting to it. That's when I prefer first person POV to all other POVs, if the voice is very distinctive. Otherwise I tend to prefer third person POVs in both fanfiction and professional fiction.

I know a lot of people don't like second person, but I really have nothing against it. It's not my favourite either, and I generally wouldn't want to see a sustained usage of it in a longer fic, but for shorter fics, why not.

Writing a good first person POV definitely takes skill, I agree - so I kind of want to practice! I may try it out in an old familiar fandom; I don't know if I would feel comfortable leaping into a new fandom with a new narrative style, considering my still-tenuous grasp on character voices.

I kind of want to experiment with second person again too. I've mostly only seen it in short pieces too; I wonder if anyone's successfully pulled off a long story using it (or if they had any readers haha).

Almost said "I hate it" for second person POV, but eh, there are a couple examples of it being done well. I think it only really works in small doses with a lot of consideration for every technical aspect of the writing (and obviously, I don't mean artsy flourishes). A certain flow and flexibility is needed to prevent the story from sounding too textbook or blunt.

I have a reflexive dislike of first person, but if I can get through the first couple pages I can usually immerse myself fine from there. Strong and consistent character voice is imperative. Otherwise reading in first person is boring. I recently read all of Tamora Pierce's Beka Cooper books which use first person very well--but use the journal format rather less well. For fic, I can only think of one good example of first person off the top of my head.

Third person is, of course, my forever POV.

Character POVs, now, those can drive me up a wall because of all the rewriting required whenever I decide to try fixing a scene by writing from a different perspective. Plus, I generally don't like a lot of POV switching in a single story, let alone a single chapter. :\ Trying to come to terms with this, though, as you know. Also I am so much fail at sending those installments regularly lol.

I WILL GO DOWN WITH MY OXFORD COMMA. NO ONE CAN TAKE IT AWAY FROM ME.

lolol I don't think I saw half as much second person POV fic until kpop, where lowercase, pretentiously-spaced second person POV fic was practically the norm. WHAT IS THIS SHIT, thought I. And yet, some were decent. A few may have been excellent.

On the whole, though, I definitely love third-limited the best too. I forgot to ask about present tense v. past tense though! Hmm. Another thing people have strong feelings about, I suspect.

I think I have a kneejerk hatred of journal formats, mostly because I don't ever think they are as necessary or as interesting as the author thinks they are. I always think the story would've been better told in traditional narrative, even if it were first person POV. :(

I am waiting to see where you go with your chapters and character POVs!

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Very true about how ficcers can get character voice wrong in first person - or it's not even necessarily wrong as maybe being a different interpretation than one we've formed. In published fiction, we're not approaching the narrator with a preconceived idea of character and voice so it is far less likely to ping us as wrong. (Though I've read characters I hated and do gave up the book for...)

I also think its fun to experiment with different writing styles, despite my preferences. :D

Some of my very favorite fics have been written in first person; they really do feel the most ~personal~. It's like sitting down with a friend and rummaging through their mind :). But you have to have a very veeeeery strong grasp onto the characterization, all the nuances and quirks, and most importantly: how to show exactly how everybody else is feeling and reacting without turning your first person into third, AND remain distanced enough as the first person.

I don't think I've ever read a second person where I was like 'bang up job mate!' Like you mentioned, too much like "choose your own adventure" and that wigs me out. But it can be done well.

Third is the town bicycle - well ridden and well loved - but if you can ride it well, you can graduate to the motorcycle...

+1000 on careful storytelling in first person. There are things your narrator will and will not know. There are things they will inevitably have unreliable narration for. It's what makes it do interesting, when done well. Definitely requires a different approach than third person.

Yeah, still trying to remember if I ever read a long plotty second person fic; they tend to be shorter, more introspective/artsy fics...

I always instinctively want to write in first-person, but resist precisely because of the amateurish associations!

But it can be done so well! And to that requires practice, right? :D

I'm surprised by the amount of second person POV hate actually. If forced to choose between second person and first person in fic, I'd probably default to second every single time. |D

Haven't read any good 1st person fics. In fact, the only first person narration I've come across so far and liked is a book rec from you (♥ Borderlands Series, thanks again for introducing me to Ms. Freeman even though she putters like an arthritic senior with her writing, urgh.) The Hunger Games was also fairly palatable, but that's it really.

I think there's a danger of first person POV in fic to become contrived or just wildly OOC.

Need to get back to my own third person... limited. Multiple-third person limited. Augh. How do u do dis Mei. D:

Edited 2012-01-04 03:39 (UTC)

Oh god, crying forever at how SLOWLY she is writing that last book - it's the last in the series, right? God, idek. I guess I can just reread the first three over and over and OVER again.

Writing is hard, dude. D: Get tipsy?? GOOD LUCK, IT'S GOTTEN SO LONG!

I like how so many people are all, well if it's written good, i'll read it! And that's kinda true for me but mostly I will dismiss it in as little as a paragraph if it's not in third person. I'd be more willing to read it in published works just bc, well, ok, they had an editor, they had to improve the quality at least a bit, and sometimes it works really well for chick lit! Buuuut mostly I avoid it.

"if it's written good"

i can grammar

Haha actually, yeah. I'll read it if it's good, but since I have a knee jerk dislike of first person in fic, it's unlikely I'll get far enough into it to know if it's good. Which is why most of my experience with first person fics come from highly recced authors or authors I know are good at what they do (eg femme).

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I...have no idea, huh. I kind of want it because omg ADORABLE but they're also really big bro/little bro? Maybe I just want a fic with ALL of the people who adore Mimi. Did you hear about this new Liu Chao guy? Apparently he's an 89er, taller than Zhou Mi, and totally crushes on him. I want this.

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Dude, idk, he's unnatural!! Mimi was already a freak of nature. Our average is, like, 5'5" maybe. Or...whatever that is in cm. 165? Anyway, apparently they're both going to be in some Chinese drama together, right (along with Victooriaaaa), and so they went to China but got stuck on separate flights on the way back to Seoul. LC was first, so then he chilled for over an hour until Mimi's flight got in so they could leave the airport together lol. Apparently very excited/clingy re: ZM too. :D

Didn't do the poll b/c I... don't write? And have no inclinations to write (too much self-flagellation involved /o\) so I was kind of stumped on the last question, haha. In terms of reading though, I prefer third person limited best, and am super picky about both first and second person POV. I very rarely read first/second person in general and in terms of fanfiction, I only ever really read it when I get a really good rec. If I had to choose between first or second person... ermm... whichever's written better? /non-answer ahahah orz

Re: published work, still prefer third person best, though I've read a few books with first person (Sherlock Holmes, Borderlands series, etc.). ... I don't think I've ever read a book in second person? Does this even exist?

Also, I LOVE THE OXFORD COMMA \o/ Chinese people hate it though apparently? I keep finding myself adding it in when doing my proof-reading work at my internship.

You could just do the first part! Polls don't require you to answer all the questions if you don't want...

The only books I remember with second person POV are the Choose Your Own Adventure books which, yeah, works - but is totally not comparable in terms of style to a a typical novel or fic. I do wonder if there are any really good (and long) fics or books in second person.

IDGI Chinese grammar a lot of times. D: Whatever, Oxford comma, never leave me!

Oooh, I didn't know that! Okay done! \o/

I... don't think I've ever read a Choose Your Own Adventure book. Which would explain why I've never read second person in published work. It's interesting to think about though! I've only ever read drabbles/one-shots in second person, so I wonder how it'd work out for a longer story/novella.

Chinese grammar is so wonky! And they really like to add "etc." at the end of their lists, so it's like "X, Y and Z, etc." and then I'm like... so are Y and Z the same entity and the "etc." here used correctly or is this a case of the missing Oxford comma or...??? EVERYONE SHOULD USE THE OXFORD COMMA, IT WOULD MAKE EVERYTHING SO MUCH EASIER--/rant

等等 everything, amirite? It's so handy sometimes.., I feel like I'm way less stickler for grammar in Chinese, lol. Probably because I don't know it well.

i will forever associate second person with pretentious teenagerly angsty wrong fic, but that is merely a what-i-wrote-when-i-was-young-and-stupid thing. (LIKE WRITE A STORY ABOUT RAPE IN THE SECOND PERSON. FOR SCHOOL.) though second person does have the potential to draw the reader into the emotional narrative, if done right. also it looks very artsy.

third person limited is the best! or, you know, I find it most comfortable to write in.

never really tried first person outside of school compositions, which were written an age ago, sobs. oh the days of adventure stories and castles and guttering torches set into brackets in the stony walls ... how the hell did my teachers let me get away with such dramatics. but, um! I think in fic perhaps the first person narrative would be rather risky, as you'd have to get into the character's head quite thoroughly. books are okay, though.

I LOVE THE OXFORD COMMA. I ALSO LOVE THE SONG OXFORD COMMA BY VAMPIRE WEEKEND, EVEN THOUGH IT STARTS WITH THE LINE "WHO GIVES A FUCK ABOUT THE OXFORD COMMA".

Well clearly the answer to that question is WE DO. WE CARE. And I actually associate first person more with angry overblown teenage feelings/writing lol. But of course done well, every perspective has things going for it.

Tricky question, and if baby stays happy, I'LL POUR ALL MY THOUGHTS OUT ON THIS.

First, it must be said that any and every POV can be the best thing ever when the author knows what they're doing.

However, some POVs are just infinitely more difficult than others (second person, I'm looking at you). So though it boils down to 'does the author know how to write in this POV?', some POVs, if done wrong, are TERRIBLE. Third person is essentially the easiest to write, so if the author gets it a little wrong, it's not so bad. If you screw up at all in second person, though, it's horrible. It's why I seldom read second person - people just can't pull it off easily.

I write and read first and third person. I find that with certain characters, I have a preferred POV for writing (read as: DUO IS ALWAYS IN FIRST PERSON ZOMG). The thing about first person is that you really have to be comfortable with the character, or it comes out as a self-insert, like you said. You really have to KNOW that character, and how they are NOT YOU, even if you feel very much like you're like them. Being similar to a character =/= being that character. Duo = me, but you know what I haven't done? Been orphaned, or had everyone I know die TWICE, and I have no Gundam training, and I've never been in a war, and I don't refer to myself as the God of Death. So while Duo = me, Duo also absolutely does not = me AT ALL. And that's a balance that HAS to be maintained, or the fic doesn't work.

There's another element here that you didn't mention - different POVs (and this applies to past and present tense, as well) have different functions. There are things you can do in first person that you can't in third, and vice versa. So part of it is recognizing what you want to accomplish with any specific work to determine what is the most effective way to go about accomplishing that. I want to live in Duo's head, so I always write him in first person. XD I'M JOKING, I actually write him in first person because there are jokes and subtle emotions and snark that just works so much better in first person. I'm actually writing an epic one-shot that is shifting first person POV - Duo and Heero - and honestly, the story literally would not be possible to write any other way. I mean, sure, I'd be able to write something similar, but it would not be the same work - it would not have the same feel or exploration of the plot as it does right now.

So, what I'm really trying to say here is that an author who has a firm grasp on writing (which I am not claiming to have) not only can write in any tense or POV, they also know specifically when to use what to tell the most effective story.

haha SO MANY THOUGHTS! But I do agree with you, especially the really great point that different POVs have different functions. Some POVs are much better suited for one purpose than another, so it really does come down to exactly what kind of story the writer wants to tell and how they want to tell it.

So, what I'm really trying to say here is that an author who has a firm grasp on writing (which I am not claiming to have) not only can write in any tense or POV, they also know specifically when to use what to tell the most effective story.

Yes, absolutely! :D I don't stop in the middle of reading books/fics a lot to be like, wow, I really like this POV!! But looking back, there are some stories that just wouldn't work from another POV (and some stories that would've worked better in a different format...).

I think a lot of what I prefer in perspective is going to depend an awful, awful lot on what kind of effect the author is going for. Just because I've noticed in reading that the change in perspective really does change how the story works.

Like, let's take the Dresden Files, for instance. That story is meant to be a sort of pulp noir homage done via urban fantasy. So the perspective is first person limited, from Harry Dresden's point of view. And I think it has to be that way. Dresden's got a very Humphrey Bogart kind of feel to his voice, and it adds real grit that way.

Second person will always remind me of CYA - and it should, because CYA is awesome - but if done right it has its own edge. Speaking to 'you' and 'your' experiences can be an effective way of putting you into the character's shoes. It can force you into a position where you really have to empathize with the character, because it's not just the character, but you as well.

I think one author that really pulls this off well is Karin Lowachee, and ~~even though I know you'll only read it for the pretty men who are totally boning each other~~ it's a fine example of space opera and characterization.

If I'm reading fic - and God, but it's been a while since I set foot in there - it's got to be third person. It absolutely has to be. Most fic writers are so bad that they completely miss the mark in terms of characterization, at least in my fandoms. Third person carries the least amount of risk, and despite that it can be every bit as strong a method of telling story as the other two. I think.

That's not to say you can't have strong authors doing first person POV in fic. But the odds of a good author writing fanfiction are... well, not strong. Present company excepted, of course. :) More often, it's a teenager - or worse! a tween! - using the character as an outlet for personal angst because somehow there's just that 'speshul konnekshun.'

That's just me ranting, though, and it's an opinion. I have no data to back this up.

haha after reading everyone's comments it seems like the majority of people are all saying the same thing - which is that different POVs are effective for different things and that we will read all of them if they are written well (even though we have different preferences).

I don't think I've heard of Karin Lowachee - what's she written? (lol pretty men boning each other IN SPACE?! i should look into this.)

Nah, you're totally entitled to your opinion on fic - it's Sturgeon's Law, that 90% of everything is crap, and it totally applies to fic. I think it's also because most people write fic to entertain themselves to to satisfy some id want that they didn't get in canon, so it's not really about literary styles or developing one's writing - it's more the idea than the method of conveying it, I think. But I've read good stuff in first and second, so it can be done!

Lowachee has written a sequence of novels, the first of which is called Warchild. This is the particular one which makes extensive use of the second person throughout the first several chapters. It was eligible for a Philip K. Dick award back in 2002... good stuff.

And you know, I get what you're saying about fic. Sturgeon's Law and the 90%. I just always strove to be part of the remaining 10% that was worth dying for and all that. Mercedes Lackey is a pro writer who speaks rather highly of fanfiction - one of her pet projects, The Secret World Chronicle was essentially City of Heroes fic gone legit. I guess that's why the genre tends to disappoint me so. Writing to satisfy id, though... that makes total sense.

I love first person in original fiction! It gets me more invested in the story, whereas third person can come off as the author projecting onto the characters. First person fools me more easily :) Also, like someone mentioned already, voice! Have you read Oscar Wao?

Really!! Third person comes off more like projecting to you? I don't think I've ever run into anyone who felt that way. O: That's so interesting. But I guess it sort of makes sense too, because when you slip into first person narration, you "become" the character and their motivations make sense to you, whereas seeing it in third person you might be like "What? No, he'd never do that, what are you making him do?". /SPECULATES

Yes, I have read Oscar Wao. It's a great book. :D

I prefer third person limited above all others, but will read whatever if it looks well-written. Second person I see so rarely that I love to give it a chance in order to find out that one amazing question--if you're talking to me, then who are you? It's usually delightful to find that out, and even if it remains a mystery, it's still a fun journey.

There's a decent amount of second person fic in kpopland! Or there was last time I was actively reading in kpop which, to be fair, was about two years ago... It's pretty cool to see authors experiment with different styles from the norm though! It doesn't always work, but sometimes it does, and then it's like, damn! I definitely want to try writing more first and second person POV.

That's so funny--I don't think I've ever read second person in Kpop fandom, though I've read it in other fandoms. I'd be interested in the Kpop second person fics, though! Cool. I should hunt around for some, lol. :)

I write mostly third person, and sometimes second person. I don't recall if I've ever written in first person... but I wouldn't dismiss it without trying it out (but then I can't really imagine what kind of story I'd try it out on, haha). When I'm reading, I prefer third person most of the time, but depending on the tone of the story, I feel like sometimes second person works just as well (for example, like all those kpop stories I used to read where the writing was all very lyrical and poetic and dream-like, and the plotline wasn't very concrete). I do think second person brings you in closer, but the reason I am less likely to read first person fic is because I feel like sometimes, it feels a lot like self-insertion on the part of the writer. (But I guess that's more a problem with the quality of writing rather than the pov itself.) I feel like it takes a really good writer to pull off a good first person story - the wrong voice/tone just puts me off the whole thing.

IN CONCLUSION: I will read any pov if it is well written, but some povs are harder to write well than others? The third person pov is probably the most forgiving in terms of writing ability.

.. wow, that was longer/babblier than I thought~~

I AGREE about the self-insertion bit; bad first person POV always come off like that to me. :( But if you've read femmequixotic's H/D, she pulls it off super well. ♥

lol "fond" memories of those artsy kpop fics. I've seen it done well too though! (I've seen you do it well, lol.) Possibly just the bad ones stay in my head longer because it came with pretentious spacing/alignment too.........

Yeah, I think third person is definitely the most forgiving.

For me, I'd rather read first-person than second-person, mostly because in first-person it still feels a little detached while second-person is like, forcing me to self-insert, which I find extremely awkward and undesirable. Of course, there are always exceptions to my hatred of second-person stories, but overall I avoid them as much as possible.
Agreeing with you on not minding as much when published authors write in first-person, though.

I think a lot of people's dislike of/discomfort with second person may have to do with our overall lesser exposure to it in popular media and writing. And then the exposure we do get to it is often...bad... Or awkward. But yeah, on the whole, while I like second-person when done well, it's not often done well, so I also definitely get why a lot of people don't like it.

Oddly enough, I find that I default to second person when I'm wordvommitting on yarny? It's really really embarrassing AHAHAH

After that I rewrite all the pronouns so that it ends up third person. Most of the time I prefer third limited to omniscent, because when you have everyone's view point it gets...a little boring? I end up guessing most of the plot chapters ahead of when they'll occur.

Regarding first, it's either a hit or miss. Usually what happens for me is that it either works for the piece, or it just RUINS IT.

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tell me also your feelings for the oxford comma

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