let's talk about kpop.

[meitachi]

I thought I was going to spend today coding up my SPN/J2 pimp post. Sadly, that looks like it'll have to wait for another day.

Today, I'm going to meta.

I figure a lot of you don't know what's going on with the Wincon08 drama and don't think you care because it's in SPN fandom and you're not in the fandom. The fact of the matter is, it's not fandom drama - it's about the realities of what constitues sexual assault and what kind of attitudes and actions perpetuate that (both inside and outside fandom).

But I get that a lot of people reading this journal are more in-the-know about kpop. So let's talk about kpop. Let's talk about what I find problematic with kpop and how it - like every other fandom in the world, fictional or real person, Western or not - contributes to problems of sexism, racism, transphobia, homophobia, lots of other -isms, lots of other -phobias, and so on. Because all fandoms do not exist within a vacuum and the things we say and do in fandom affect (and are affected by) Real Life, which includes our own innate prejudices as well as society's prejudices.

Disclaimer: this post will focus heavily on my experiences within SJ fandom in particular because that is what I know. Thus there is more emphasis on fans who like their boysex and discount women; I'm not trying to dismiss the existing and very much active girl group fandoms. And yes, while these are mostly my own experiences and observations, I do think that what I'm trying to say does apply beyond just my corner of experiences. (And thank you so much to peachgirldb, mardisgrasmaven, 2naonh3_cl2, and transitorial for being soundboards.)

--

I've always said that fandom should be fun! It should never (in my opinion) get you so emotionally overwrought that it no longer makes you happy but makes you miserable. This is my approach to fandom, anyway; I won't judge anyone else theirs but I know what's best for me, because I have in the past been in fandoms where I was so affected by ship wank and other drama that it made me miserable. I don't think it's worth it, frankly. So I say: have fun! Enjoy what you do. Don't let it make you miserable!

That does not mean, however, that I think we should all get a free pass to ignoring the very real issues that exist in our fandom. Not the issue of "omg will Super Junior ever be the same without Hankyung?" but issues like, "hey, maybe kpop - and South Korea in general - has some problems with objectifying women or marginalizing homosexuals. Maybe we perpetuate that in what we say or do in kpop fandom."

This is the attitude I get from a lot of kpop fans (albeit subconsciously because I don't think anyone I know of has actually said this flat out):

"LA LA LA I JUST WANT TO ENJOY MY DANCEY MUSIC AND BOYSEX IN PEACE and why fuck up my groove with a serious topic that makes me have to examine my own issues? I'm just here for the porn, okay? Don't harsh my mellow~"

First: There is nothing wrong with liking slash and just wanting to have fun.

I want to make that clear. It's what I'm here for! Which is obvious, if anyone's taken a look at my fangirly entries or my writing journal. But "just wanting to have fun" does not excuse willful blindness to the blatant issues within our fandom. It's not an excuse to not care about issues that affect the idols you care about and, more importantly, that affect you and the people around you that you care about.

Second: Just because you like this band or their music or their pretty boys (or girls) does not mean you have to justify away all their problems until they're perfect. You can acknowledge that sexism exists. Racism exists. Homophobia exists. Because it does. Closing your eyes to it doesn't mean it doesn't; it just makes you another person perpetuating the problem by ignoring it.

• Kim Taeyeon says that Alicia Keys is pretty, for a black person
  --defenses include: Why would she intentionally insult a singer she likes?, You can't apply your American standard of racism to her because her upbringing is different!, There was no malicious intent!
  --Intent is not a requirement for being racist. In fact, a huge part of racism is that it is underlying, unconscious, and institutional problem in society. American society, Korean society, all societies. Racism exists everywhere, not just in America and a comment like "for a black person, she's really very pretty" does in fact imply a lot of unpleasant racist things.



• Choi Siwon does not "wish to acknowledge homosexuals" because of his religion (source); he is called out as a hypocrite for his kiss with Kim Heechul during a concert performance
  --You don't have to acknowledge homosexuals in order for them to exist. They do exist. Acting otherwise is only an assertion of straight privilege that continues to silence and discriminate against a minority.
  --I really have no comments on the religious aspect or the hypocrisy; my focus here is that homophobia does in fact exist in South Korea. This does not even touch on the attitudes of fans who will tolerate the close touchy-feely "skinship" between two male idols but will fly into a rage if you even begin to suggest that it might be anything more than platonic. More likely than not it is merely platonic; but to react so badly to the suggestion of homophobia reveals more than a mere fangirl's delusion of her dream to one day meet and marry her idol being threatened - it also reveals the existence of a problem with the idea of two men, or two women, loving each other in more than platonic ways.



• Kim Jongwoon (Yesung) calls fat girls lazy
  --Misogyny and fat hate all in one post! Shindong also says that it's okay for boys to be fat, but not girls. The ideal of the perfect woman forced upon girls in South Korea is ridiculous. There's a reason why plastic surgery is fairly common there, particularly among women. ("A recent study among high school girls found that nearly 80 per cent were unhappy with their appearance and viewed aesthetic surgery as a remedy." -source; "Teenagers as young as 14 are doing it, and eye jobs have become a favorite high school graduation gift from proud parents." -source)



• MBLAQ's G.O. avoided Heechul because he thought Heechul was gay
  --Notice that Heechul has to explicitly go out of his way to state that he likes women and has Eeteuk corroborate that statement. Because the alternative, that he might be bi or that he might actually be gay, would be unacceptable in this society (especially as an idol). Because if he actually did like guys, it would have justified G.O.'s avoidance of him.

I'm not sure I even have the heart to go into concrete and discrete examples of these views also being reflected in fandom, by fans. I do point out a few in the following. It does exist.

--

It's not that I expect everyone to take up arms and start being an activist, but sometimes it's incredibly frustrating that people can't even accept the fact that these problems exist. Start with that. And once you at least acknowledge that the problems exist, then maybe do something about it. And here I'm not talking about spreading petitions or marching on streets or, god forbid, buying out stock in the companies. I'm talking about thinking about the kind of comments you leave or the kind of posts you write; maybe reconsider your own privileges and biases. Why don't you write het fics? Do you seethe with jealousy with Siwon poses next to Yoona in a freaking SPAO ad? Does the idea of femslash squick you even though you're all for the sweaty mansex? Do you perpetuate gender stereotypes by calling Zhou Mi a girl just because he likes fashion and wears tight jeans?

I'm far from guiltless in any of these issues. I definitely include myself in the people this post is addressed to. That's why I like reading other people's posts privilege and prejudice and being forced to confront my own stereotypes and biases (the non-fun kinds that aren't all about how amazing Lee Donghae is), unconscious though they might be.

So read some of these posts. Think about what they're saying. Think about what you're saying when you choose to leave females out of your fics, even though in real life, we know that many male idols are very close to female idols. Platonically or otherwise. Think about what you're saying when you refuse to read het because you don't like it - not just graphic het sex, but het entirely. Think about what you're saying when you fangirl your boy idols and excuse things they say or do because, "oh they're just being boys", or "it's not homophobic, they're just raised in that kind of culture!", or even "they're not gay, because gay people don't exist in South Korea!" Think about what you're saying when you write genderswap* fics not only "feminizing" a male's personality but also his wardrobe. Think about the fact that you write guys turning girls but not girls turning into guys.

*the term "genderswap" is problematic too, considering the usual case of genderswap or genderfuck fic is the swapping the anatomical sex of the character in question, not the gender identity. but this is the generally used fandom term and I've used it as well.

Here is a list of posts that I think are amazing, with some choice comments highlighted:

• Fannish spaces, girls, and the culture of silence.

  Fandom perpetuates rape culture by silencing women, and we silence women when we remove women from our own narratives, when we refuse to write or read about women, when we talk about how female characters are stupid, slutty, saucy, too strong or too weak to enjoy, not written well enough, not worthy of as much attention as the boys are. We perpetuate victim-shaming when we degrade "women's issues" as inferior, icky, and gross. We perpetuate misogyny when we venerate canons that have high numbers of male characters and only one or two girls. We perpetuate the idea that boys' stories are better than our own, the idea that boys are better than us.
  
  ...
  
  I know that there are people out there who'll tell me that I'm trivializing or conflating two different issues, that what happens on the fictional side of fandom has very little to do with what happens in real life. But can any of us take an honest look at the vast culture of silencing women that we have instilled throughout fandom as a whole, and then look at the victim-blaming and silencing and shaming that can happen when women are victimized in real life fannish spaces, and say definitively that these two things aren't related?




• Silence, consent, rape. (this post contains trigger warnings about rape)

  A compilation of links about (1) rape culture in fannish spaces, (2) rape culture as experienced by the community, irl, (3) rape culture in society, and (4) basics.
  
  "It is totally effed that we live in a society where women actually live with the mentality that there but for the grace of (unknown assailants) go us; that we think we're *lucky* not to be raped; that our view of rape is such that we think Not Being Raped is a PRIVILEGE that we as women actually have to work to earn.
  
  And when we don't earn it, when we don't succeed at Not Being Raped, it's because we didn't participate well enough in the Meritocratic system. What's wrong with you? These other women managed to Not Be Raped, why couldn't you have the good sense to do that too?
  
  This message--that it's our fault when we're raped--is what we tell ourselves as women. It's what gets told to us every day by the justice system, by sociocultural norms, by the abusive men who threaten us, by patriarchal society.
  
  It is never. Ever. That simple."




• You Probably Know a Rapist; Jokes are About Relieving Tension

  When you make rape jokes, bear in mind that you’re not just making them around potential rape victims. You’re making them around potential rapists. You are making a joke that tells the women around you who have been raped that you think their rape wasn’t serious, and you are making a joke that tells the men around you who have raped that you think what they did is not serious.
  
  You are telling rapists that they have an ally in you.




• Language Matters: Framing Rape

  When we say ‘date rape’ or ‘acquaintance rape,’ the qualifiers suggest that the crime is unusual. Peculiar enough that we need to draw attention to it. In fact, the majority of rapes are committed by people known to the victim. This includes friends and intimate partners. People don’t say ’stranger rape’ because it is presumed that most rapes are committed by strangers, and thus that no qualifier is needed for people to understand. This little trick of language reinforces a common misconception: That rapes are mostly committed by strangers. The ’stranger jumping out of the bushes’ myth is alive and well and qualifying rapes committed by people known to the victim reinforces it.




• Hipster Racism

  Hipster racism involves making derogatory comments with a racial basis in an attempt to seem witty and above it all. Specifically, the idea is to sound ironic, as in “I’m allowed to say this because of course I’m not racist, so it’s funny.” It’s an aspect of a larger part of the hipster culture, which wants to seem jaded and urbane and oh-so-witty. Using language which is viewed as inflammatory or not appropriate is supposed to push the boundaries and make someone look edgy, but it only really comes across that way to people who buy into that system. To everyone else, it’s just racist.




• Liberal Sexism

  One of the great myths of our democratic society is that liberals can’t be sexist (or racist, classist, ableist…), by default, simply because of their intrinsic liberal nature. In fact, the -isms are alive and well in the liberal camp, despite strident claims to the contrary, and I find it intriguing to observe the liberal community’s response to charges of sexism, which usually involves either sticking heads in the sand, or plugging ears and whistling loudly.

  
  
  
• Delicious bookmarks to discussions of racism, white privilege, and the problems with being "color-blind"



• The idea that opinions are never wrong!

--

For me, there are two things in particular about sexuality that I've been wondering about:

1. Why do some of us assume everyone in kpop is straight? Yes, we like to write about boys fucking but then we hand-wave and go, aw, of course I don't really mean it, they're straight irl and they're totally going to get married and have kids and it will be super cute, yay! There is some evidence in what we know, sure - they've had past girlfriends, they talk about the kind of women they're interested in, etc. But why is the default straight, not bisexual? Why do we think it's okay that just because South Korean culture forces heavy expectations on all men to be manly men (and do military service) and then get married to a woman, it's okay for us to buy into that too?*

2. On the other hand, I also think it's problematic when we start assuming people are gay. Why? Because more often than not we're making these assumptions based on stereotypes. I have seen more than once people claiming, dead seriously, that Hankyung is gay. No question. That Heechul is gay. That Zhou Mi is gay. That Ryeowook is definitely for sure gay. There's no way they can be straight when ______. When what? When Hankyung is close to Siwon and likes to dance? When Heechul loves girl group dances and dressing up in female clothes? When Zhou Mi is into fashion and is scared of small bugs? When Ryeowook likes to cook instead of playing sports and has a small body build? They might be gay. They might be bisexual. They might be straight. Why are we deciding for them? Why does it even matter, considering RPF is all about suspension of belief over reality in order to fictionalize real people and write about them? You can write about them gay or straight or bi; I just don't see why we have to start making claims about their real lives.

*I am guilty of this. Anyone who's heard me talk about Donghae knows I want him to find true love and get married and live happily ever after with a wife and kids. But I like to think that should anyone come out as not entirely straight and choose not to pursue the path of Romantic Wedded Bliss, I would be fully supportive. Hell, even if they are straight and just choose not to marry and have kids.

And while we're still on me, let me share some personal accounts. I'm not trying to attack anyone - I'm just as guilty.

→ Back when I was on LJ in high school, a lot of my friends came out as bisexual. I didn't think - hey, that's awesome that they feel like they have the support here to be honest and comfortable with themselves! I thought: dude, is being bi the new cool thing to do or something? The trend of being edgy and non-conforming? This attitude reflected my straight privilege like crazy, to assume that bisexuality is a fad and to assume that "straight" is the default from which bisexuals seek to "non-conform". I'm grateful to say I no longer subscribe to that ridiculous belief. I still live in (mostly) straight privilege though, and I try to be aware of that.

→ For a long time I refused to read femslash. Not because I closely linked female-on-female sex to the objectification of women, especially by men who were hypocritically intolerant of male homosexuality but found female homosexuality "hot". Mostly because I was terrified that I would enjoy it. And that would mean that I wasn't as straight as I thought! How homophobic is this mindset? This says: I am afraid of being anything less than straight because ____. Because I would be judged. Because I would face recriminations, hatred, prejudice. Because X, Y, Z. The truly stupid thing is that if I read femslash smut and enjoyed it, who the fuck would know? No one but me. It was fear of judgment in my own head, of myself, that I could be anything less than straight. It was stupid. It was perhaps largely due to my environment - my upbringing and exposure to familial and societal pressures, expectations, and beliefs. I'm happy to report that I managed to get the fuck over myself by figuring it out: that it's pretty hypocritical to say I'm in support of gay rights but still be so innately homophobic.

So let me say this: I doubt I'm 100% straight. I don't know if I'd call myself bisexual. But, hey, femslash? I do enjoy it. It's just as if not hotter than sweaty mansex.

→ I started off fandom writing Mary Sues for boy band slash (BSB, if you must know!). I moved on to Harry/Hermione and Draco/Hermione. I thought slash was icky. Somehow, I fell over Tasuki/Nuriko and SasuNaru and 1x2 and then it was all slash, all the time, horrible bashing of female characters: go. I didn't hate the idea of het (Syaoran/Sakura has always been an OTP), but I reached astounding levels of rabid slash fan where I enjoyed Relena-bashing RFOs and could not even skim het sex scenes without feeling ill. Why? God knows, I'm not here for intense psychobabble. I am just so profoundly grateful that I got over that, and why I am so profoundly grateful for bookshop's post on females in fandom (linked above), because it was something I definitely connected to on a firsthand basis.

Even now, I spend much more time caring about and shipping the boys than I do the girls. Am I subconsciously excluding women? Am I just more interested in the boys? Why do I write slash more than I write het? Why have I not yet written femslash?

I'm just trying to figure things out here too. I'm trying to pay attention to my prejudices and my privileges and not let them get out of hand. I'm excited to learn! Like I told Aja, despite how depressing humanity can be (and all the links above lead to some mighty depressing stuff), the fact that people are talking about these issues and sharing their stories makes me excited, because I want to learn! I want to think and talk about these things!

So let's think and talk about these things!

Comments

[meiface.livejournal.com]

I actually felt physically ill by some of the willfully ignorant (and hurtful) things people were saying in defense of the person in question, or in accusation of the victims. Ugh. But so much of fandom reacted by writing incredible posts on rape culture and safe spaces and sharing painful but courageous personal stories - so I'm thinking good came out of it, because now more people know and are learning and thinking.

♥

[hoyah.livejournal.com]

I want to talk to you more about these things! Well, more than I have been in gchat. But I think I will have to shower now. :( I'll be back, though, and maybe I'll pick a topic. >> Maybe after I read the 37u3020348 links I've opened.

[meiface.livejournal.com]

We are talking and that makes me happy! I HOPE YOU ARE GETTING CLEAN. And that you enjoy the 5 gazillion links because they are all awesome links. :D

[silentdictator.livejournal.com]

Wow. That really made me think about some of the things I say and do online and irl. I did a public speaking unit thing in English about homophobia and your post really made me think about how /I/ feel about people who are gay. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. :) It makes things easier to think about because it's probably not just one person thinking it.

[meiface.livejournal.com]

That is awesome! I have been reading things lately that have been making me think and that led to this post - so being able in turn to make other people think thrills me. These are all issues that get overlooked often so - yay for more awareness. :D

[hoyah.livejournal.com]

let's talk about superficiality in kpop fandom. i just remembered one of the things that always made me raise an eyebrow was how people were always certain shindong had to be the straight one. and i can't help but think it must be because he's less attractive...

[meiface.livejournal.com]

UGLY PEOPLE DON'T GET TO HAVE SEX, Y/N? And only hot guys get gay sex!

Man this is huge. This is also something I'm guilty of. I can see how the superficiality of "canon" translates to fandom here though - the heavy, heavy emphasis on ideal bodies and perfect faces in the entertainment industry borders on unhealthy. Hell, it crosses the line. (See the recent comments about SNSD and Taeyeon's "tummy".) And the fandom eats it up. It's really ridiculous and it makes me sad that we as fandom also perpetuate that.

Yes, so and so is gorgeous. Yes, we want to (sorry for this) lick 'em all over or bone them. But, we say, we also like them for X Y Z unsuperficial reasons like how sweet they are and how funny they are! That doesn't excuse the fact that we as a fandom in general only seem to write sex or fics for the "pretty" or "hot" ones. :\

...which can be argued is everyone excepting Shindong because everyone else has industry-required ~perfect weight~ and ~perfect faces~. Sigh. Shindong, I'm sorry. I hope his relationship/possible engagement goes smoothly! :D

[pregnantcigar.livejournal.com]

i agree with a lot of what you said. with het, though, i think it's understandable to not want to read it because for some girls the whole appeal of slash lies in the fact that there are no other girls to compete against. in a relationship between two guys you're free to observe and not feel pressured to identify with either of them. when i watch modern-day romantic comedies, for instance, often times they can be enjoyable but i don't find myself really drawn into them because i can't relate to the female character - and for some reason there is this expectation or pressure to do so.

i'm actually not sure why rps appeals to other people but honestly - for me a lot of it has to do with how forbidden it is. it's impossible to divorce rps from the reality that homosexuality is still not accepted in many societies. this might be another discussion altogether but the idea that two best friends might be in love with each other and cannot be together is what makes me ship them. i'm not sure how this relates to your post, lol, and i might be alone in feeling this way. personally, i assume everyone in kpop is straight because 1) i don't want to pigeonhole them into that stereotype that you are gay if you dress/act a certain way and 2) i would be indulging myself otherwise. (basically this is an admission that i am in fandom because i am to some degree deluded and believe that my otp have at one point or do feel something for each other beyond friendship.) this is really interesting because we're all in fandom for different reasons.

but what you said about femmeslash really hits the nail on the head. i've thought about this before, too, and the reason i don't read much femmeslash is because, like you said, it makes me uncomfortable. it makes me insecure about how straight i am. but i think there is also another reason that you might not have mentioned, which is that a lot of girls don't feel comfortable with even their own bodies, and that's what makes reading about guys so much easier. in the case of femmeslash we're suddenly forced to confront the female body, when we might not have even come to terms with our own.

@____@ there is so much to think about and i wish i had the time to read over your post again and click on all those links!

[meiface.livejournal.com]

for some girls the whole appeal of slash lies in the fact that there are no other girls to compete against

Very, very true! But I find that problematic - why is a girl considered competition? Is it because we don't like girls? Or is it because we are a girl and we really think the guy in question is straight, so another girl would pose a Real Threat as opposed to another guy, which is all just fantasy because no way would the guy in question actually be gay or bisexual? Because that goes back to the idea that we assume straight is the default sexuality. And I don't understand why it should be the default sexuality. Why are we heterosexual until proven otherwise? WHy not homosexual until proven otherwise?

I guess we all do like RPS for different reasons! (OT: I was once considering writing this fic about Donghae - yeah, shocker - being potentially homosexual and sort of exploring or questioning that in his youth. But then his father dies and he feels obligated to live his father's dream - being a singer, marrying a pretty Korean girl, having the perfect heterosexual life. And...it would basically be depressing and about living under cover and repression of self and possibly there would've been KiHae at some point because, y'know.)

And what you say about femslash makes sense, about girls not being comfortable with their own bodies. I know/knew a lot of vagina-hating girls. I'm kind of like, well, you know you have one, right?

You can always come back and look over links at some other time (after your busy busy schedule), because this post isn't going anywhere!

[peachpastiche.livejournal.com]

I think the thing to keep in mind, though, like Mei said, is that there's no reason to position "straight" as the default. When society makes straight, white, able-bodied the default, it erases the existence and experiences of people who are not those things. And rather than saying we should assume everyone is gay, black, or disabled, we should probably just not try to label them without their own input. A big fat question mark works pretty well when it comes to people's sexualities! (...unless you're attempting to date them?)

[hoyah.livejournal.com]

Butting into this thread!

I find your discussion of modern day romantic comedies interesting. Actually I really like them, because I feel I relate in a lot of ways. But mostly ways that have to do with dating, not necessarily the character.

I also find it interesting that you brought up the idea of competing with other women. I agree with Mei that it seems problematic - I think it lends itself as a reason as to why women seem so much more ready to criticize and dissect other women rather than men in the same situation. Women in power are often talked about behind their back, considered less of women because they're somehow in the position they're in. And considering what you said about this sense of competition, I think a large part of this has to do with a sense of inferiority by those women who are less successful, less beautiful, less whatever. Maybe they feel as if they're in a competition, and they aren't winning.

[emeraldcrystal.livejournal.com]

Ten zillion thumbs up. You know, if I had that many. Thanks for being brave and eloquent enough to write all of this down. (not that you need my approval or anything o_o) I know I have been guilty of some of these, though I like to think I've matured enough that it's not an issue anymore. Also, thanks for the links! I'll read through them later and probably shove a few of them at some other people.

[meiface.livejournal.com]

You make me happy. This comment makes me happy! Thank you. ♥ And I definitely do recommend going through the links when you have time, because they're incredibly thoughtful (and spot-on with words in a way I can't always manage). And even more yay about spreading the links! :D

Though I do have to caution: it is awesome that we are growing, but it will always be an issue because I don't think we ever reach a place where we can safely say, "Okay, NOW I know I have no bigoted prejudices whatsoever and none of my actions or words will ever convey that despite my intentions!" All we can do is be aware and try - that's most important!

[konnistique.livejournal.com]

So let me say this: I doubt I'm 100% straight. I don't know if I'd call myself bisexual. But, hey, femslash? I do enjoy it. It's just as if not hotter than sweaty mansex.

I so approve of this. I doubt anyone in the world is completely 100% straight, but then again, you can't measure this concept in numbers as we do. It just doesn't work that way. I just believe gay/het porn will turn anyone on if done properly. Idk.

I mused over the fact that I love SNSD so much that I start wondering if that makes me not straight anymore. But I didn't think i was, just like you, even before I got into them. I still support gays/lesbians and het. I have no objections to anyone's sexual preferences :) Sadly, this fact doesn't apply to everyone.

I just love beautiful things in general; girls, boys, whatever. I'll take them. :)

[peachpastiche.livejournal.com]

Labels are only useful if they're useful to you! Someone told me that once and it's very true. And I hear that it's quite common nowdays for younger people to reject labeling their sexuality.

I get you about SNSD. Even though I like girls, I'm a big Morning Musume fan and I rarely ever see them that way (or I have to actively try). I am mesmerized by their beauty and talent in a way that doesn't always have to do with my orientation!

[ch-ar-me.livejournal.com]

Can I just say that I want to make love to this post? So many things to think about. I love it.

All silliness aside, have you ever felt like Kpop fandom exists in a... sort-of bubble? I know I'm barely in the fandom, more like just dipping toenails in it at the moment, but when I was still active and started getting distracted by other fandoms, like the occasional HP or non-Kpop RPS, it always felt like Kpop had its own rules. No srs bsns involving homosexuality and straight privilege or whathaveyou. How fan entitlement is taken to a whole new level. How the moment one idol makes mistakes the whole fandom explodes with apologists and people who give rational explanations how this isn't okay are attacked instead.

Personally, I know I'm guilty of putting Kpop in said 'bubble'. Kpop's a guilty pleasure, defined for me by cheesy, overly happy music sung by hot guys who may have a hipthrust or two (or thirteen) to sway me. When a part of my flist explodes with racism wank, I don't associate it with the comments Taeyeon made. Eating disorders/weight issues, certainly not with Yesung or Shindong. I know it's a wrong mentality, and it took way too long for me to realize that--I was a Yesung apologist too. When biases run too deep... And hey, I definitely went through a 'seeing them as mere sexual objects to make me happy' phase.

These things and a lot more I definitely wouldn't have learned just within Kpop itself. It took dabbling in HP and AI and especially figure skating to make me realize that hey, I've been saying/thinking things wrong. And I'm probably still doing it, but god I hope it's lessening at least.

Aja's post on females in fandom's such an eye-opener. I had such a hard time finding females that I liked in fandom. There was even a time when the number didn't even fill one hand. I never touched het until... just a few years ago, wow. Even when I liked a certain female, like Sakura, and I love her with Syaoran, it was always more natural and appealing to ship Touya and Yukito. HP became instrumental in the variety of pairings that I read, from femslash to the large age gaps. But I definitely remember that I felt guilty reading femslash. Very much like your story. Would reading and liking femslash make me a lesbian? What if it was femslash porn?

As much as I love going all ~think-y! on stuff like this, it's also why I seldom delve in because I just end up having more and more questions about who I am and just end up with 'I'll be in my bunk enjoying fic'.

(if this is as disjointed as i think it is, sorry hsajfgdhjs ninjaing while at work is oh so hard lol this comment took too long to type. i will roll in the links you posted later.)

[meiface.livejournal.com]

♥! Thinking is great! Even if we end up with more questions. Hopefully that makes us want to go find answers. :3

I definitely agree that kpop fandom seems to exist in a bubble sometimes. I was thinking about this (see?) and maybe part of the reason is because there's a language barrier for must of us in the English-speaking fandom? There's also some cultural differences but I think people often conflate the language barrier with the cultural barrier and dismiss both: oh, we have no idea what it's really like, or what they're really saying, so we shouldn't hold them accountable for ___ because we just don't understand their culture or the inflections of what they're saying! While that might be true to some extent, I feel like that's mostly fandom just looking for an excuse not to think about the heavy stuff. Because racism is still racism and misogyny is still misogyny, whatever the language or culture - it's not that hard to spot it, really. And while we should probably make the effort to understand why the culture is like that - that doesn't mean it's okay to ignore the fact that, hey, culture is racist/homophobic/sexist/transphobic/etc.

...talks a lot. But yes! Aja's post on females in fandom is really what pushed me to make this post in the end, because I was like, oooh, yes, this is true. Here, have my Thoughts on Yaoi Kpop.

Anyway, none of us are perfect or always know the right thing to say or do, but it definitely helps that we are more aware of it than we were in the past (omg, our dark pasts). So yay for that! And thinking thinky~ thoughts.

[out-of-words24.livejournal.com]

I know exactly what you mean. Back when I was still writing slash, I wouldn't touch het with a ten foot pole. I think what you said in an earlier comment makes perfect sense. Back then, to me, it felt like a girl would pose a Real Threat as compared to another guy. I think I subconsciously assumed that all the boys I was writing about would be straight irl. Seeing as I didn't actually know if they liked boys or girls (or both), my default position seemed to be that they would probably be straight irl. I'm not sure why that is, why I've been conditioned to think that people are straight until proven otherwise. Perhaps it's just because we grow up surrounded by more heterosexual people and images in the media. I don't know, honestly. Could this also be another manifestation of straight privilege, the way we assume that being heterosexual is the norm for just about everyone?

In many ways I think girls' enjoyment of slash is akin to the way boys find two girls getting it on so attractive. There's no competition involved. In our case, there's no thinner, prettier girl to compete against and get in the way of our appreciation of the idea of two hot guys making out. Like you said, there's definitely an element of fantasy involved. We tend to also assume that hot people only get it on with other hot people. Reading/writing het seems to acknowledge and reinforce the idea that this other girl getting it on with your favourite boyband member is more attractive than you are, and hence unless you're also that hot you'll never have a chance with that particular boy. I know most of us don't actually believe we'll ever get that close to our favourite idols, but it does detract from our enjoyment of fic, somehow. Perhaps this idea of competition is also why I never had a problem with femmeslash, even when I used to dislike het.

It's funny, really. Ever since I started dating my boyfriend I've developed a much kinder view of het, and I honestly have no idea why. It is truly baffling. Overall, however, I hope my comment makes sense; it feels like I've just been rambling on a lot. Thanks for this post, though, Mei, you've really gotten me thinking. Going to check out the links you've posted now!

[black-goose.livejournal.com]

I uh, do actually think Hankyung is gay but that's not because of any kind of stereotype or whatever, I just...think he's gay. That said, I do agree with what you're saying. We have no idea, and it does annoy me when people say THERE IS NO WAY THEY ARE ACTUALLY GAY SO YOU SHOULD STOP WRITING IT because we don't know if they are or not, and to say that they definitely aren't is to make it black and white and to make it seem like them being gay is a Bad Thing.

Kind of weird how your fandom history kind of mimics mine, since I started in HP fandom (Ron/Hermione though) thinking slash was really weird, then moved onto Fushigi Yuugi, where Tasuki/Nuriko is one of my most favourite pairings of all my fandoms. Difference is, I then moved onto Sailor Moon fandom, where I did write some femslash. Two of my favourite pairings of all time have been femslash.

I guess it depends on your fandom. I mean, I was never that interested in SNSD when I got into fandom, and even now, I don't think I could write them. Not because I don't want to, but because I don't really get their characters that well. But I do write f(x), increasingly nowadays. I think the fact that since jumping into anime fandom, I've been fine with femslash kind of highlights how utterly not completely straight I am :| I also think it's a stage in fandom that you have to get over, which happens when you're young.

The rape culture stuff terrifies me, and I confess that I never really noticed it until I started reading unfunnybusiness when you tweeted about it. I'm not sure if I'm guilty of it (I'm guilty of writing genderswap a lot, but that's because I like het stuff sometimes and I like my otps so I just squish the two together) but I have found myself thinking about it more often. That can only be a good thing.

[meiface.livejournal.com]

I don't think thinking Hankyung's gay is automatically a bad thing! Just that most of the time when I see it in fandom, it's based off frivolous assumptions. But I'm just as against the inherent assumption that the default sexuality is straight. I guess I'm curious why you think gay and not bisexual though, especially sine he has expressed interest in women in the past and I don't think we're exactly in a position to dismiss that as false. I sort of wish everyone would assume bisexual until told otherwise, or maybe not assume anything at all, but that's really too much to ask of humanity. We're always going to make judgments of people; I guess it's really in how we handle that (and try not to be douchebags, etc.).

I also think it's a stage in fandom that you have to get over, which happens when you're young.

Oh I really wish. :( I'm really glad it seems to be that way with most people I know (you, me, others) but I've come across people who have...not grown out of this. Who don't look like they're ever going to. Because they don't ever stop to think that what they're saying or doing is problematic at all; because they don't expose themselves to different opinions or the different opinions just don't sink into their heads at all, idk. It's pretty depressing to see though.

Ugh rape culture stuff is awful and scary and I think everyone is at least a little guilty of it due simply to its massive presence in our everyday society, but yes, definitely good for us to think more about it and be more aware of it. It is far better than ignorance, imho, willful or untintentional.

[filterpaper.livejournal.com]

You probably know this site, but it posts like daily with sociological viewpoints of Korea/Korean culture!: http://thegrandnarrative.com/

[meiface.livejournal.com]

I did not! Now I do, thank youuuu. :)

[intomorning.livejournal.com]

I don't have a lot to add and this isn't entirely related to kpop, but I just wanted to say that SPN/WinCon08 was definitely eye-opening for me and I learned a lot that I didn't know about/wasn't really aware of before.

[meiface.livejournal.com]

Basically I've come just to say ♥

[forochel.livejournal.com]

BB SORRY DELETED COMMENTS B/C NOT V. THOUGHT THROUGH WILL COME BACK LATER IF EVER WHEN NOT TRYING TO BE NINJA ABOUT METAING AT WORK GUH TYVM FOR THE LINKS, YOU KNOW I LOVE READING ABOUT SHIT LIKE THIS.



(ALSO AM V GLAD KPOP FANDOM HAS YOU, AND AM V GLAD I HANG AROUND IN SANER PASTURES)

[meiface.livejournal.com]

Your comments remain in my inbox and they were interesting to read! Let us discuss this stuff more, if you so wish!

[vanillacat.livejournal.com]

I agreed with all your k-pop points, but this one struck a chord with me, in a bad way:

We perpetuate misogyny when we venerate canons that have high numbers of male characters and only one or two girls

... I feel like this is making a massive logic leap. So, because I like Prince of Tennis over, say, Naruto, I'm perpetuating misogyny? Because I only really follow the boy groups in k-pop, I'm a misogynist? I'm going through the rest of her post now, because that line... startled me.

You made an interesting point, finally, with your personal story about femslash... Hrhm. You remember black_goose's SJ genderswappy thing, right? See, reading that... made me uncomfortable. I can't quite explain why, as I'll happily coo over my irl lesbian friends cuddling, but...
I think it was the lady parts. I'm not entirely comfortable with my own vagina yet, and honestly I find it kind of gross, like a dark, sticky cave. At least with penises, the gross is all on the surface. :| I suppose it's odd that I'm more comfortable with penises?

[meiface.livejournal.com]

See, that sentence of Aja's post made me stop to think too - I know I got instantly defensive because, well, I was into PoT and JE and now SJ and all of those are very much male-centric. But I don't think liking fandoms that have high numbers of males necessarily means misogyny - it's if there's a trend of liking male characters to the exclusion of recognizing or appreciating female characters that's problematic. It becomes an issue if we find ourselves spending all of our time only caring about male characters, which is more likely in male-dominant fandoms, because that contributes to the erasure and invisibility of female characters.

So liking kpop boy groups by itself is not itself misogynist - it can often just reflect a trend that is problematic or indicative of a (oftentimes unintentional, unconscious) problematic mindset.

As for the femslash and female parts, I don't think it's actually uncommon for girls to be uncomfortable with their own bits - especially when they're your age. I mean, don't people say a woman's sexual prime is in her 30s? So teenage years and even the 20s are all about ~discovering~ and ~exploring~ and figuring out how to be comfortable with our own bodies and sexualities, I think. :) Though that's probably also a lifelong process...

[faithgrowsold.livejournal.com]

Hi!

I want to preface this letter thingamabob by stating that it is midnight and my life is basically sickness, studying, packing and finals. Therefore this totally seemed like a good idea at time of typing. Also, if it is odd or incoherent, I blame it on the sickness, and maybe a little bit on the whole midnight thing. :D

But yes! So basically, I just wanted to thank you actually. I don’t think I would have found out about all the Wincon drama if I hadn’t been doing my weekly creeping of your journal a few days back and seeing your post on it but I’m so infinitely glad I did. I spent the last week or so reading a lot of those articles you linked here actually, and other ones and I’ve ended up doing a lot of thinking, about myself and my experiences in real life and online, and about fandom in general and I’ve come to some realizations and I’m really grateful for them. It’s made me look at myself, my friends and at fandom critically, which kind of always ends up a bit depressing and often does not end well, but it’s made me a little proud of myself too, and if it brought out my faults, at least it has showed me I wasn’t alone in them.

Basically, in a nutshell, I can think, I have thought and you are awesome for prompting such thinky things to be happening in my brain. Also known as fuck yeah self realization on the internet.

Which is to say, thanks for talking about Wincon on here, because if it wasn’t for you I wouldn’t be thinking about all the stuff I’ve thought about this past week and it was important stuff to think about indeed. I’ve always admired and respected you since I got into kpop fandom and I’m really grateful that you find it important to talk about these sorts of things here. And also, in this time when many of my friends in kpop fandom (myself included) are peacing it, and so it seems, are you, I’m glad I can still stalk your for spn/j2 related things.

Cheers.

Katie, one of your many internet stalkers~

p.s. How excited are you for the gorgeous kids Jensen and Danneel are going to have someday? :D

[meiface.livejournal.com]

Hi Katie! Getting this comment in my inbox kind of made my week despite all my fluctuating moods and stress. You have no idea how thrilled it makes me to hear that this post got you thinking because that's all I ever hoped this post could do! ♥ So really, you are awesome for being receptive to this longass post - I was afraid I would just be talking and talking and talking to people who wouldn't even bother to listen, and I know for a fact that there are people out there who didn't bother to read or think about this post because it was long or because it dealt with ~serious issues~ and they just wanna have fun -- so I really really love that you did take the time. :D These are definitely important issues to care about.

What happened at Wincon08 was an awful thing but I've learned a lot from it too and from what people have been talking about regarding the issues involved - so I think it has been a positive learning experience for me (and others, I think!) overall.

♥♥ and omg yes, let us flail about SPN/J2 and other things like hohw gorgeous Jen and Dan's babies are going to be. I hope they are so so so happy. *____*

[meiface.livejournal.com]

PLEASE RAMBLE MORE, IT IS GREAT AND MAKES ME HAPPY. ♥ Actually, mad props to you for noticing and caring about these issues - when I was your age (sorry I went and stalked your profile ;_;), I was pretty oblivious and might still have been in my dnw-het phase. It's only within the last year that I've really sat up and started paying attention to these issues and caring and even more recently that I've been trying to, idk, get conversation started about them.

Yeah, kpop - both the "canon" of reality and the fandom - have a lot of issues going on. I hate seeing fandom giving everything a pass though, like it doesn't count because it's just escapism. Definitely escapism - I mean, that's why I'm here, I just want to have fun! But it's so disingenuous to pretend RL issues don't exist just because you don't want to deal with them, y'know? RL issues affect our real lives. We kind of have to deal with them.

bookshop's post about girls in fandom was actually that last little push to make me type up this entire post. :D Her post is indeed awesome and lots of food for thought.

In conclusion: YAY FOR THINKING AND YAY FOR YOU.

[bonomanic.livejournal.com]

Yes, this is me commenting on a year-old post. I do it because I love it and support it, and also because I want to ask you if it would be okay to link to it from my journal? I'm in the process of mulling things about slash writing in my head that have been nagging at me for a while now because the discontinuities between my personal and my fandom experiences need some sort of outlet.

I will stop not saying anything with many words now. I love this post, I love your meta (and your fic, for that matter), and I hope I may link. :)

[meiface.livejournal.com]

It's absolutely fine if you want to link. :) Thanks for letting me know!