meitachi | the fine and multiple approaches to RPF

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the fine and multiple approaches to RPF

So I was reading, which happens, and stumbled across some discussion about RPF that made me pause and think.

There have been dozens upon dozens of threads in fandom over the years about how some people can't do RPF at all and some people can do it but only certain ways and other people are like, "Hit me, baby, I can take anything." It's all cool, because it's all a matter of individual taste and so on, but something that's made me curious is the huge difference I've seen in approaches to RPF in Western RPF fandoms vs. Kpop/Jpop RPF fandoms.

For instance, a lot of people in Western RPF fandoms want the family members to be left alone/left out or at least not demonized ("written out of character") in RPF. A lot of people can't read or write about certain people once they've started dating or gotten engaged or married. A lot of people don't mind RPF if it's more gen or friendship or PG romance, but can't do the filthy smut bits, because that feels more violating. Some people can do RPF up until the point they meet the person in question IRL, and then it's no go.

All of these are totally legitimate ways to feel; different strokes for different folks, YMMV, etc. It just made me blanch and realize--

I don't think I've seen anyone in kpop/jpop RPF fandoms even come close to having these issues. Why is it so different? Is it the language barrier? Because we know they can never read this stuff? (Though what about when fics are translated into Chinese and Korean and Japanese, their native tongues (because oh they have been--)?)

What about Henry? He can read English, yet that doesn't stop us from writing fic about him.

Maybe part of it is that the "idols" in the kpop/jpop fandoms aren't really allowed to date (or let on publicly that they're dating), so that rarely becomes an issue. Have people stopped writing Shindong in pairings because he's engaged now? (Did people ever start writing Shindong in pairings? is perhaps a fairer question.) Is this why people don't really write Shinhwa fic? Is it because they're old and no longer doing things together as a group, or is it because they're old and married? A combination of both?

Is it because we can't really find out that much information on their siblings and family-- No, wait, that's a lie. Considering I can tell you which SJ members have siblings and rattle off about half those sibling names (Ahra, Heejin, Inyoung, Donghwa), considering fans have met some of these idols' parents IRL, it can't be said that fans don't have as much access to information about idols' families. But somehow I've never seen fuss about siblings being written into fic a well.

What about all of us who've been to concerts or musicals or fan-signings or what-not? We've seen these people in person, but for the most part it doesn't seem to have stopped us. Is it just that kpop/jpop fandom generally attracts the type of fans who can handwave the whole RPF issues in a way Western fandoms can't as a whole (because Western fandoms, for one, tend to be larger and thus boast a larger range of fans with different RPF tolerances)? I don't know if I believe that.

Is it due to ingrained Western beliefs about individual rights to privacy? Is it due to the way Western celebrities fight to stay under the radar and out of the camera, away from paparazzi, while in kpop/jpop they pretty much have their entire lives exposed to the camera (and that's just accepted)? Is it that jpop/kpop stars have sort of become "public property" due to idol culture, rather than individuals who just happen to be famous as in the West?

Or is it really just the language barrier?

Then again, maybe there has been similar protest in kpop/jpop fandom and I just never knew about it because I am basically cool with all RPF ever (they become characters in my head, if you want to see (uh, again) my convoluted and disgustingly lengthy attempt to explain it via KiHae) and sort of oblivious to it all.

I just have so many questions, you guys. /earnest

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I don't think it's necessarily a single cause. I'm not in kpop or jpop fandom at all, so I can't really say, but it would make sense to me if it was a combination of a few - the language barrier, perhaps, but also the way that different cultures treat their celebrities and the different approaches to privacy.

You are probably right! It's never quite just one thing. It's just so interesting to me, as someone who reads both, how differently their fandoms treat RPF. *___*

Do their siblings/family members get written about often in kpop? I haven't read much fic in quite awhile, so perhaps I've missed something, but at least as far as SJ is concerned I can only recall either other members being made fake siblings, or real siblings mentioned in passing (as in, those nice little details that can make a fic feel more realistic).

I dunno, all I know is I don't write about the siblings/family members myself!

Also, and only because I have to check the entries on the SJ fic comm every day, I've noticed since Tablo got married and had a kid, there is a lot less Eunhyuk/Tablo posted. This is either because Tablo is now married, or because Epik High have not been around much, or because it's lost its thing?

I DUNNO. I AM TRYING TO BE THINKY HERE WITH YOU! :(

Really? I think I've seen their siblings being written in a few times! Not very often, but a few times. Though I do agree about the Tablo thing - some people said they couldn't write him anymore after meeting him/because he speaks English, but yes... Decided lack of BloHyuk recently, so it could be due to both marriage/EH hiatus. Then again, a lot of the older popular pairings are no longer being written, but that might be driven by the fact that Kangin and Hankyung (and Kibum) are no longer around giving us ~updated canon~ stuff to work with?

Probably lots of factors, in the end!

...ohhh man, I have Things to Say about all this. More after my cereal break.

Yay thoughts! Looking forward to them. :D

Okay. Cheerios have been consumed, here we go.

For instance, a lot of people in Western RPF fandoms want the family members to be left alone/left out or at least not demonized ("written out of character") in RPF.

Personally, I can only write about siblings/family members in passing; I have trouble writing an actual "character" for people I have no deep knowledge of. I'll use name as flavor elements, or as anecdotes for something humorous, but I'm not about to go making a relative a major character in any of my stories.

Some people can do RPF up until the point they meet the person in question IRL, and then it's no go.

AHAHAHA I can never write Tablo again. I'm pretty sure

sapphynashi feels the same? I don't know why, there are other celebs I've read RPF about that I've met in person (Dir en grey springs to mind,) but with him it's just this giant embarrassment-squick style "NO." I think it has something to do with the fact that my fic about him doesn't do him justice...? The slash factor has nothing to do with this, I just don't think my writing is as cool as he is to me. :(

Is this why people don't really write Shinhwa fic? Is it because they're old and no longer doing things together as a group, or is it because they're old and married? A comination of both?

As for half of this question, it hasn't stopped writers from continuing to write fic about TVXQ. A good deal of it is lawsuit fic, certainly, and I know several authors who can't write them as a group due to Circumstances, but there are also a lot who continue to write as though nothing has changed. I think it's more a matter of exposure--so long as there's something to remind us of their presence as a group (like a lawsuit -_-) there will still be fic. Who knows.

I'm not sure it's the language barrier that makes me comfortable with RPF, considering that it hasn't stopped me from writing or reading fic about the actors of Merlin. I think it's more an accessibility/interest thing than actual ability to read such things. Sure, Bradley and the rest COULD read my fic, and I'm not sure how I'd feel about that, but it seems unlikely that they'd want to for any other reason than something like a drinking game. TVXQ has written an entire drama subplot around fanfic. They know it's there, and they use it. How else can you explain some of the fanservice we get?

But mostly it's exactly what you said. They're people, yes, but when I'm writing them they're less people and more characters in my head. (Which sounds terrible when I phrase it that way orz) It's why I can write wild AUs and not think that it's entirely strange. If it were the actors in those situations, sure, that'd be weird. But as yet another character involved in telling a story, not so much.

...I'm sure I could say more but for now I'm satisfied. HOLY CRAP this answer is ridiculous, I'm sorry XD;

Edited 2011-02-06 01:19 (UTC)

I think I'm with you on the stance re: siblings! (Though I remember reading a number of J2 fics where their siblings actually had fairly large roles and I was a bit "...huh" but then shrugged it off because everyone is a character to me when I read fic :x)

Also yess, good point about TVXQ still getting fic (not that I'd know haha); that makes sense. So much of RPF hinges around having current things happening IRL (a current "canon", if you will) that provides us with something to write about. So Shinhwa (and KI/HG/KB) are basically off the radar now in terms of giving us new canon, so fic will not really spring up around that.

NO I LIKE YOUR LONG THOUGHTS. :D They are so interesting to me!

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ahaha me too. Though I've noticed I like to incorporate IRL events when writing fic for SJ, so idk. Maybe it's just getting inspiration or maybe it's being this weird form of ~canon-compliant~.

SHINDONG'S ENGAGED O.O?! WWWWWWUUUUUUUUUUUUT?????????

Well I mean, I agree with "vowel" - they're all just characters to me. I mean, they have to be. Because my current favorite ship is Nate Fick and Brad Colbert and they're not even celebrities, just two (amazing, awesome, awe-inspiring, HOT) Marines somebody decided to write a book about; so there HAS to be a divide between Nate and Brad the characters I read and coo over, and Nate who is married with a kid and Brad who is still serving as a Recon Marine.

It's the same for me with kpop, but I think with kpop the boundaries seem less stringent simply because we know even what we see to be THEM is mostly a character they are expected to play; they're ~IDOLS~, they have an entire facade on all the time for their fans (a lovely lovely facade, but still we rarely get to see their flaws - or at least the companies don't want us to).

Where as with Western celebs, their flaws are half the fun. Chris flips off papz, Zach can't dress himself, Tom is a myspace whore/spaz, and JGL makes even the most pretentious of hipsters look tame in comparison.

In a way, kpop is in and of itself a fictional universe imo. Though perhaps as a result of this shielding and idolizing, it leads to more demonetization of females. I mean, you get it in Western culture/OTPs too, but there are more people (and usually the BFNs) who are outspoken and encouraging of the celeb's signif other, as opposed to yaknow...sending them letters in blood...

Yep, for a while? In the 4th album "thanks" he wrote her a note in code which was basically a proposal or a lead-in to a proposal or something. Lol, clearly by that time i was not even paying attention to kpop. Her name is Nari and she is tiny and cute, and they are planning to be married...eventually... /still does not pay attention

As I said to to someone else, it's really interesting the idol culture. Because one could argue that we know them better than we know the big Western/Hollywood celebrities because they do things like so many silly variety shows where you can see their true personalities (instead of awkward interviews, where it's all about preplanned answers and careful wording to not give away anything personal). We get to see idols talk about family and friends and their past - to an extent, manufactured confessions to make us feel closer to them and invest more feelings and therefore care enough to spend ridiculous amounts of money on concerts/goods. Which works! Where Western bands rely on you paying for the music, and you don't really get to know the people behind it as much? Same with actors, even. In Asia, they get asked to tell stories or do silly things; in the West they're sort of revered as untouchable almost. I don't know, it's just funny to think about.

Then again, that's all shifting in our Internet culture, because now no celebrity is that untouchable if they choose to share themselves online: i.e., with Twitter or Tumblr or whatever other form of direct-to-the-fans kind of thing.

(all that said UGH THE KPOP FANDOM UGH)

See I love the silly variety show activities they do but they're still all so in line with who they are or are expected to be. I mean, they play up the fanservice, though watching them attempt to flirt with girls is seriously my favorite thing ever, and it's great to see them goof off with people in other bands who they are actually friends with irl or whatever, but it still feels very posed. I mean, how much off the "off the cuff"/randomness they show is actually randomness and not something determined pre-show backstage? IDK. I've become very critical of kpop in general I think so *shrugs* that's my bias~

But then...I think to a degree, everything about western celebs and kpop idols is posed as a means of marketing that person, so I just take what I see at face value as characterizations and build up my own interpretation of that personal. But of course, that also makes me that much more critical of characterizations in fic, but more relenting of guys being dicks because hey they are in real life. (Pretentious!Zach? LOVE IT! Manslut!Chris? THE BEST KIND!)

IDK. All I care about rn is that ZQ is legit dating Jonathan Groff from Glee and they make thee cutest most wow-i-didnt-see-that-one-coming couple ever.

I had all these responses about how idols definitely fake a persona for the public but sometimes reality creeps in (like when all those shows get really personally invasive as with Donghae's dad and family issues) BUT I'M TIRED SO LET'S JUST GO WITH GO ZACH, I HOPE HE IS HAPPY. :D :D

maybe it's because it's more 'expected' in kpop? like there's definitely fic/art written/done in korean/etc, so i'm pretty sure idols are really aware of it, and i think they play way more into it than western celebs do? i mean the west does fanservice too, with like spn panels and whatever, but i think asian idols are way more active in promoting it/go to farther lengths, maybe? also i think because the whole 'image' of lots of asian celebrities are way more constructed and fabricated than those of western celebs, so they basically seem unreal anyway

the only rpf i am D: about is TSN rpf! and i still read it! i just feel a little D: on the inside imagining the real mark zuckerberg also reading it D: D: D:

oh yes the awareness OH YES THE EUNHAE STOP IT OH MY GOD

aksdghdkj SCREAMS MARK ZUCKERBERG READING TSN FIC ALSDKGHDFJ

SERIOUSLY IT'S TERRIBLE BC /THEY'RE REAL PEOPLE/ THEY'RE NOT EVEN CELEBS I JUST KEEP IMAGINING HIS NON-JESSIE EISENBERG FACE ALL D: AND ALSO EDUARDO SAVERIN'S NON-ANDREW GARFIELD FACE ALL D:

BUT THERE'S ALSO ANDREW/EDUARDO RPS...FOR WHAT IS BASICALLY ALREADY RPF IN MOVIE FORM. LOLOLOL.

FOR WHAT IS BASICALLY ALREADY RPF IN MOVIE FORM

...OKAY YOU JUST BLEW MY MIND. I mean, I knew all of the relevant facts, but it had not occurred to me to put them together like that.

Kind of like Generation Kill too! Except it's probably less likely an ex-Marine is poking around in spaces online where he might stumble across fic about "him" (as played by someone else in a mini-series), whereas Mark Zuckerberg is...you know... Finger on the pulse of the Internet and all that.

hmmmmmmmmmmm because pop idols cultivate personas and it's mostly these personas that people slash? though pr ... idk. i've never rly met anyone with rpf issues, other than rl friends who are in fandom and are like "but they are real people D:" and this is, like, a panfandom sort of thing.

re meeting people though. i don't even need to have met s.keynes to NEVER WANT TO EVEN OPEN MY NARNIA RPF FILES EVER AGAIN asdlkajsldfkjsldjlsa AWKWARD TURTLE AWKWARD TURTLE AWKWARD TURTLE dear 2nd degree of separation I HATE YOU.

it's probably an ~interplay~ of factors though. only becomes interesting when you get fandoms like gk, heh. or tsn.

Well, like other people have pointed out, it's a "persona" thing and also a fanservice/this is what they're deliberately putting out there thing and a language barrier thing and PROBABLY MANY THINGS REALLY.

I AM JUST CONTENT LOLING AT YOUR AWKWARD TURTLE. /USES AWKWARD ICON

i have a theory that it's about the fanservice? after all, the jpop/kpop idols really go in for it, and fanservice / 'gay'ness is part of the whole entertainment process. so it's probably rarer to find a jpop/kpop fan who would have issues with slashing the guys together (though i have met people who couldn't do slash or smut too).

ooh yes, this makes sense too. Kind of like-- they know what they're deliberately putting out there. Probably a combination of many factors in the end, but definitely this is a big thing in shaping fandom responses.

Holy shit, Shindong's engaged? Maaaan. Good for him!

I agree with everyone mentioning the fanservice and stage personas. Maybe the age of the fans is also a factor? I don't know about the fandom at large but when that terrible Aubree thing happened a lot of my friends expressed discomfort with writing about family and non-celeb friends. Basically they're not entertainers, they're part of someone's private life and therefore off-limits. In general I tend to stay away from involving families and friends. Some mentions are no big deal, but they're very background. I used to be weirded out by people writing about Junsu's twin, but then Junho went and debuted lmao. In the case of Henry, I can't read porn about him. Just, no. Gen fic is fine, but pairings are right out.

lol like

transitorial said, I can't write Tablo ever again. My own fic now sort of squicks me out alkjfhka. It's not like I met him personally (although I'm sure that would make me even more "OH GOD") but there's definitely something that makes me significantly uncomfortable with the idea of writing about him. Not that that's bad by itself, just, I don't want to read it anymore.

Idk I think I have more ~thoughts~ but I am tired, ugh.

EDIT: It occurs to me that in the past I think I've cited the language barrier as a major cause for the difference but lately I think that's actually pretty minor. I also wonder--are the Asian fans as sex-obsessed as we are? I know that they lean more toward fanart than fanfic. And over here we're just all over porn fic. I guess in Japan there's a lot of smutty doujinshi... This, of course, also brings up the difference between Kpop/Jpop porn and Western fandom porn but I'm getting off-topic now.

Edited 2011-02-06 05:33 (UTC)

(c/ps from above) Yep, for a while? In the 4th album "thanks" he wrote her a note in code which was basically a proposal or a lead-in to a proposal or something. Lol, clearly by that time i was not even paying attention to kpop. Her name is Nari and she is tiny and cute, and they are planning to be married...eventually... /still does not pay attention

I think I've mentioned family before, but usually in passing. Though I don't know how I feel about it - I remember I once wanted to write this epic about Donghae's life, kind of like a fictional memoir, and that would've involved a lot of non-famous RL people including family - I think to me it's all characters, from Donghae himself to the people he interacts with, only that it would be based on "canon research"...which would be real life. I can definitely see how that would be weird because it involves real people and details and such, but at the same time it's hard for me to really get, because they all get fictionalized in my head, separate from reality.

As for the sex obsession - hmm, an interesting point! Most pairing stuff we've seen from Asia has been cutesy and PG, hasn't it? Oh wait, I remember that there is definitely explicit kpop porn written in Chinese. It must exist - we just don't run into it because what they show the public tends to be cutesy and PG. Which is probably true for English-speaking fandoms too; an ESL not familiar with porny vocabulary or where to look would probably only encounter PG things publicly.

/butting in out of nowhere sorry

I think that a lot of it is probably the language barrier. But the other part of it is, in my head, that idols, at least jpop idols, make their own characters. They have a facade and a persona and they've crafted this for public consumption; they have chosen deliberately what parts of themselves to show the world and how to market themselves. This gives them sort of a mask, I think? So when I'm writing about them, I'm writing about them as characters- because I'm writing about their personas, which are probably 60% them and 40% not, roughly. I guess I think it's more okay to use them BECAUSE they've decided how they are going to appear in front of audiences.

I don't like using parents/siblings unless their parents or siblings are just a mention or, say, just there for a line or something, or they have their own public persona as a celebrity as well. Sometimes it makes me weird. Especially having met the people I have, I guess. But this is an interesting discussion point, I think, this post. :) I hope you don't mind me coming over and like, going all tl;dr on you. I like meta discussions.

So when I'm writing about them, I'm writing about them as characters- because I'm writing about their personas

Oh me too! I just use irl details like I use canon, to fill things in more "realistically". Thus RPF has never bothered me - even with Western actors, because to some extent, they all become personas in my head when I write them, but obviously mileage varies with each person. To an extent, siblings/parents don't bother me either except that it's hard to get the "characterization" right because we know so little about them; so it's more that than moral issues that stops me from writing them.

And it is totally okay join in on the convo - I love meta discussions too! Or just having lots of thoughts and opinions and questions.

Uhm. Well personally I have no idea, because for me it is probably the same as with you. I have no problems with any RPF ever because it's just fiction to me! :O What I read and write about isn't real (although the issues in the plot surely tend to be) and so I don't really see it as a violation. I don't know, maybe I should think more about how 'insert person' would feel to be reading it, but... I guess I'm just a passive reader/writer. I don't tend to get caught up in moralities like that. Does that make me a bad person...? :/

We are not bad people, we just have a very strong and distinct barrier that separates "fiction" from "reality" in our minds - for better or for worse, I guess. ;)

Also, your icon is love. ♥ I WANT A COMEBACK, OH I DO I DO.

I am admiring the suitability of your icon, myself :D

COMEBACK YES PLEASE :D ...also I am so envious of your SS3 attendance.

I still, er, privately write KeiRyo stuff even though I've met them and, uh, you know my Keita, uh, issues... because RPSfandom!w-inds. is very different to me from goestoconcerts!w-inds., and hence I can keep it mentally separated. They almost seem like anime characters in my mind sometimes, really, when I write. But I don't think I can ever share again... which actually makes the entire process of writing easier, sadly. XD

Oho, yes, I suppose sharing would be more of an issue now, considering that you are not exactly just another unknown fan in an unknown corner of the internet anymore. This is all still hilarious to me, I hope you know. But yes about the mental separation! I'm glad you can still write. :D

okay first:

Did people ever start writing Shindong in pairings? is perhaps a fairer question.

lmfao.

for me, it depends on the fandom, i think. when i was reading j2, i used to read about their parents and their real names were used and i did think it was a bit weird for a while, then they became characters to me as well. when j2 got married (SADLY NOT TO EACH OTHER) i lost pretty much all interest in the pairing, whilst still being into wincest. although i've read a couple of j2s in the last few days so. :)

then take generation kill. i'm really into that and they're like, real life marines. BUT in the show, it's not them, it's actors, who are also a lot prettier than the actual people, and i think of them as entirely separate entities as well. reading brad/ray is fine to me as i'm picturing alexander skarsgard and james ransone. that being said, i'd be MORE squicked if they started bringing in real life family members because it's no longer the actors then. i mean, they're the family of war heroes. just, no.

kpop - i saw way less family mentioned here than in j2. i think i tried to look up the names of their parents once and found nothing and i was like, fair enough. i think my squick level about their family would be about the same as j2 and bradley/colin and pairings like that. :)

I think J2 fandom is really on its own in terms of how it deals with RPF - I have never seen another RPF fandom quite like it, with so many AUs and pretty significant usage of family/friends. I swear there are more J2 AUs than there are SPN AUs. I don't really know how to wrap my head around it, haha. (Was Merlin RPF fandom like that? I barely know it, since I mostly read Merlin AUs.)

GK and TSN are interesting, because they are fictional accounts of real people, so writing about them is partly-fictional, partly-RPF. And then there's RPF of the actors from the show, so, another layer! RPF within RPF within RPF?

I have...lost my few thoughts on kpop in the past few days since I made this post. /squints

seriously. i mean, i can still list the names of both of their parents, siblings and close friends. it's a bit... it is a bit odd when you think about it, LOL. merlin rpf wasn't like that, no. generally they only include people who act in the show. so you might expect bradley to talk about getting in touch with say, anthony head, or richard thingy, but family and rl friends aren't mentioned. in fact, i don't think i've EVER seen them mentioned.

lmfao it's like inception. i'm put a dream in yo dream in yo dream so you dream while you dream while you dream. DON'T CONFUSE MY POOR TIRED MIND.

awww, how come? too much stuff going on irl? :D

When I first got into RPF I felt weird about the porn for a while, but soon got over that. Then I thought I had no qualms whatsoever about RPF. (I have written my professors into ridiculous sex scenes and then gone to office hours and asked serious questions and looked them in the eye and everything, and not felt bad about it! I think that qualifies me as more twisted than most of fandom.) Then I got into political RPF and felt weird reading porn about elected officials. Then I was like, "fuck that, it's good porn," but I still wouldn't write it. Then I would write it about politicians-elect, but I felt I had to stop once they actually took office. Then...they did, and I didn't stop, and...yeah. /o\

Ahh, I said somewhere in an above thread that the only RPF that sort of weirds me out is political RPF, though I'm not sure why that's set apart for me. Maybe just the idea weirds me out a little, but if I ever got into the fandom it would no longer bother me, as with most RPF. We just keep pushing our boundaries, don't we? ;) For the sake of good writing! And hot porn, of course.

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the fine and multiple approaches to RPF

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